JEB
Legend
Ah, so Worlds and Monsters didn't cast aspersions on earlier editions in the way Races and Classes did?
D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
- Thread starter Alzrius
- Start date
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
They're a paired set. If you want to separate two books published by the same at the same time about the same game, fine. I apologize.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
That difference is where WotC and I parted ways.
deganawida
Legend
Ditto. Actually convinced me to buy the first three books and HotFL and Rules Compendium, too. Had to sell all my 4e stuff about 10 years ago.
deganawida
Legend
That is a fair point, though I took it as a bit tongue-in-cheek when it debuted. Just going my the commercials, you had pretentious faux-French dude, serious animated talk show host with homicidal tiefling and adorable but oblivious gnome, the who grapple commentary, and so on. It might be that I had quit playing 3.5 several years prior, and my colleague was younger, but I took it all as less “insulting” and more “comedic mocking”. I can see, however, how that might rub people the wrong way.
The only thing 4E got right!
[WARNING: This post may contain hyperbole for comedic effect. Use with caution.]
thenightgaunt
Explorer
That's always a tricky one to read. What's silly to one might be hurtful to another. Like I thought the animated bits were funny. My wife and I still joke about the gnome. "I'm a monster. Rawr!"
But there are some things in the Wizards Presents books that, yeah, I found insufferable and insulting. Things that carried with them a subtext of "If you play this particular way, then you're wrong and your tastes are worth of mockery". That might not have been what they meant to convey, but that's how it came across to some.
BUT the big important part of this is that what THEY wrote, doesn't reflect any of us. And it also doesn't actually reflect on the game itself. Unless someone here was on the 4e design and marketing team, no one here shares any blame for their missteps.
It's their tone and phrasing some of those writers used in those books. Writing can in fact be deeply insulting. And while it wasn't part of the 4e game's actual design, parts of the designers' PR and Marketing efforts for 4e could be interpreted as being pretty insulting to anyone who didn't agree with them.
But the fact is that not all game designers are good speakers. Some of the people they got to write the Wizards Presents books and do interviews to promote the edition, should have been left back in the office to work on the books.
Sweet. Have fun. It's seeing a resurgence thanks to 5e stumbling. A lot of people who started with 5e have grown past the offerings of the system and want something with more meat to it. And they're finding what they want in games like Pathfinder and 4e D&D.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
It's subjective, sure, but I have never been a fan of comedic mocking. I guess I'm prickly that way.
I don't own a copy of Races & Classes. I did read a friend's copy, but I don't recall it being very interesting. It was not "paired" with W&M, in that they could be purchased separately, and according to Wikipedia R&C came out in Dec 2007, whereas W&M came out in Jan 2008. This fits with my memory of seeing the latter (which I purchased) on sale, but not the former (which I did not purchase).
I've already posted, in this thread, why I think Worlds & Monsters is an excellent book that should have informed the 4e DMG much more than it did. You, @Micah Sweet, responded to my post about having been enthused by W&M with a sad face; and then, in post 1432, described W&M as "deeply insulting". I accept your grudging apology that you appear not to have actually noticed which book I was posting about, which - it seems - you may not actually know very much about.
