D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[teitan]

So, 1.5M for 1E, 1M for 2E, ~1M for 3E, far below 1M for 4E, and 3M and counting for 5E?

Those are some eye-opening figures. I had not realized the 1E boom was so gigantic relative to the editions that followed -- I thought surely 3E must have outsold it eventually. But 3E seems to have barely even nosed out 2E.

And for 5E to double the 1E figure... damn.

You know, the two editions that blew the roof off are the ones that were made without an eye on big money: The original version whipped up by Gygax and Arneson in their spare time, and the "left for dead" edition created by a skeleton crew, with minimal expectations, in the wake of 4E.

You forgot Basic, the second basic set with the Otus cover sold immensely and then the red box sold really well.

 

[teitan]

true but IMO they had to try this new thing. While there were risks the potential rewards were too great. Besides how do you spin to shareholders that you didn’t even try to implement a WOW like cash cow revenue model.

Worst case they knew that if 4e failed they probably could repviot with a 5e - which is also exactly what happened.

I don't think 5e was a guarantee to happen when 4e failed. The D&D dept was slashed, big time, when 4e failed. The brand was sustained as a nostalgia brand and I think the 5e development was a hail mary to corporate to keep it going. There wasn't a pivot, there was a "holy crap they will end D&D and make it GI Joe".

 

[Lanefan]

I read both of the Wizards Presents books and I have to admit, I like a lot of the ideas they presented there. But the book did feel like it was insulting me for liking "forced symmetry", 3.5-style hardcore worldbuilding, simulationist rules etc. and the whole throughline was essentially "All these years your D&D games were impure in lore and mechanics, but the almighty Scramjet has now descended from heavens to fix your incorrect game!".

More and more I wish I'd had a recorder going at the GenCon seminar I was at where some WotC folk (can't remember if they were 4e designers or marketers or what) came in and opened with something very close to, if not exactly, the bolded above.

And I didn't like that.

Ditto.

 

[Lanefan]

When talk of 4e's marketing comes up, I always think back to this blog post by Jeff Grubb about the transition from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition.

And yet when 3e came out WotC still put out a conversion guide for those wanting to port their 2e characters-games-etc. over to 3e.

No such thing provided for porting 3e to 4e that I've ever seen, nor 4e to 5e for that matter.

 

[Alzrius]

And yet when 3e came out WotC still put out a conversion guide for those wanting to port their 2e characters-games-etc. over to 3e.

No such thing provided for porting 3e to 4e that I've ever seen, nor 4e to 5e for that matter.

Credit where credit is due: WotC did put out a document about converting old characters to 5E. It was short, and fairly generic, but it was at least something. They even released a v1.01 later on, though I'm not sure what the difference(s) were.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Consider this: Maybe we don't get to decide what is insulting for a person? Something that feels completely normal to you may be insulting to them, and if that's the case, I think it's both unhelpful and incredibly bad manners to go "This isn't insulting, stop feeling insulted!"

I disagree. I think all the things we're talking about are subjective, and open to criticism.

If someone can criticize the work to say, "I feel this is insulting because of X" I feel saying something like "X seems pretty minor, and was also over 10 years ago now... maybe get over it" is perfectly fine.

 

[Alzrius]

I disagree. I think all the things we're talking about are subjective, and open to criticism.

If someone can criticize the work to say, "I feel this is insulting because of X" I feel saying something like "X seems pretty minor, and was also over 10 years ago now... maybe get over it" is perfectly fine.

More than ten years, in the case of Oriental Adventures.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I disagree. I think all the things we're talking about are subjective, and open to criticism.

If someone can criticize the work to say, "I feel this is insulting because of X" I feel saying something like "X seems pretty minor, and was also over 10 years ago now... maybe get over it" is perfectly fine.

1. Claiming that X is minor is at least as subjective as feeling X is insulting.

2. I am over it. No animosity towards 4e here (my issues with WotC have nothing to do with 4e). Doesn't mean you can't speak of it historically.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Consider this: Maybe we don't get to decide what is insulting for a person? Something that feels completely normal to you may be insulting to them, and if that's the case, I think it's both unhelpful and incredibly bad manners to go "This isn't insulting, stop feeling insulted!"

But at that point, every criticism of things is an insult. Its hard to have any kind of discussion when that's the case.

Edit: to make it clear, I'm not saying that some of the 4e lead up (and some of the 3e before it) wasn't tone-deaf. I'm just noting that if someone says "I think level-based advancement is dumb as a box of rocks, and here's why" if someone is really offended by the first part and responds accordingly, that's a problem. And you do see some of that.

 

[hawkeyefan]

More than ten years, in the case of Oriental Adventures.

I have no idea what this means or what it has to do with what I said.

1. Claiming that X is minor is at least as subjective as feeling X is insulting.

Yes, that’s correct!