Honestly? I don't remember. I remember expecting them to do as much or more damage as the fighter, especially when you can take long rests more frequently.
D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Honestly? I don't remember. I remember expecting them to do as much or more damage as the fighter, especially when you can take long rests more frequently.
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
My party reached level 3. I really expect the casters to dominate over the next few levels. Virtually double their spell slots going from level 2 to 3 along with 2nd level spells.
Did you watch the video? This has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
He presents the 10 biggest problems with high level play, which I agree with, and none of them are that "fighters can't contribute" which is what we are talking about.
Also I will add one of the problems he does identify is "math gets more complex" and "players have more abilities to remember" .... which are both going to be made worse with more complicated and powerful martial abilities.
I largely agree with what he said in the video, high level play is a problem, but it is not a problem with the fighter class and most recommended "fixes" to balance the fighter with other classes will make high level play worse.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
What the video does mention is how high level magic can tilt the balance of high-level games. Not high level abilities, high level magic. So it should be relevant, because that's something that "martials" have nothing comparable to.
That is not true. What he says related to this quote is "High level spells and abilities ruin the fun of the game" - reference time 2:35
So yes, he explicitly says "high level abilities" multiple times and even puts those words on the screen at one point, and that is one problem out of 10 problems he mentions.
When he mentions it he does not talk about balance and speaks to them ruining the game adding they can be OP in one encounter and useless in another.
I don't remember him mentioning balance at all in the entire video, and while I generally agree with both his statement, and to a lessor extent yours on balance, these statements are fundamentally different than saying fighters can't or don't contribute.
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It has everything to do with what ivs been saying. It's what Ive been saying from the beginning.
The introduction of high level magic and the cheapness of low level magic at high levels warp high level play into a different type of game.
It's not low level D&D with bigger numbers, it's a whole new style of play.
And Fighters (and other martials) do not adjust to a new type of game. They only get their lower level features with bigger numbers.
It's like 4x games. EXplore, EXpand, EXploit and EXterminate. At the end game , when you are managing tons of space and economies then game changes because there is not land to EXplore nor EXpand to.
So it becomes the onus of the DM to rein in the casters to make high level player at like lower level play, give fighters items that resemble high level play, or hope the party enter a gentleman agreement to stick to low level play.
W'rkncacnter
Hero
so, i just watched that entire segment (it's pretty lengthy, it goes on until 7:15 in the video)...and while yes, the title of that segment does include abilities...he only actually talks about spells.
and what he doesn't talk about is how they "can be OP on one encounter and useless in another" - not primarily, anyway - but rather how such spells can outright negate parts of the game (from big/solo monsters to entire sessions/arcs). i can't think of a single non-spell ability off the top of my head that can even attempt to do such a thing...except maybe, like, stunning strike? but by high levels enemy con saves trend so high as to make stunning strike nearly worthless anyway. and stunning strike isn't even a high level ability anyway. oh, i guess there's also portent, but that's a subclass feature of a full caster and also low level, so...also not actually relevant.
EDIT: also, if there's a part in the video where he does discuss how high level non-spell abilities break the game that i missed, feel free to provide a time stamp.
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FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
Made it to level 4 in Solasta main campaign
Damage numbers now are at:
Druid - 380
Wizard - 341
Paladin - 324
Cleric - 306
Notes:
Spike Growth and Moonbeam really put the Druid on the map damage-wise.
Wizard would be a bit lower but scorching ray against a weak vs fire enemy gave him an edge.
Enemies are rarely closing in to melee enough to justify the Paladin smiting alot - it's often mop up duty by the time they get there.
Damage numbers now are at:
Druid - 380
Wizard - 341
Paladin - 324
Cleric - 306
Notes:
Spike Growth and Moonbeam really put the Druid on the map damage-wise.
Wizard would be a bit lower but scorching ray against a weak vs fire enemy gave him an edge.
Enemies are rarely closing in to melee enough to justify the Paladin smiting alot - it's often mop up duty by the time they get there.
This I agree with and is one of many things pointed out in the video.
This is not mentioned in the video.
None of that though says or implies that fighters can't contribute at higher levels. This is my point, the idea that fighters are somehow irrelevant or not fun to play at high levels.
I don't see how this video speaks to that at all. What the video suggests is that d&d is not fun at high levels and the argument, as presented in the video is mostly independant of class. Of the 10 things he mentions, 8 of them apply to games with high-level fighters.
Playing a perfectly balanced party of 4 Wizards does not change ANY of the points made in the video. Everything he points to as a problem is still a problem even if there are all Wizards and no fighters in the game and thus no Wizard-Fighter balance concerns.
Same on the flip side, most of the things he points out as problems are still problems in a high-level game of 4 fighters with no other classes and no fighter-caster balance problems.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Exactly. Never once does the video call out anything that isn't a spell. So if there is a high-level non-spell ability that causes problems in high level play, no example was given of one.
Looking over what "martial" characters get at high levels, I see things that can cause more damage to be dealt, or adds more survivability, but nothing that could circumvent parts of an adventure or even campaign.
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