D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Oofta]

The discussion on cannon also assumes that cannon were developed and that there is no magical counter. Early uses of gunpowder were more flash than bang and were more effective at instilling fear than actual damage. When you can do cantrips that are just as flashy that actually do damage, not to mention even first level spells, who knows whether or not those early weapons would have amounted to anything.

In addition, for every weapon of war there is typically a counter. We don't have spells that counter cannon in D&D because it's not a core assumption.

 

[Reynard]

The discussion on cannon also assumes that cannon were developed and that there is no magical counter. Early uses of gunpowder were more flash than bang and were more effective at instilling fear than actual damage. When you can do cantrips that are just as flashy that actually do damage, not to mention even first level spells, who knows whether or not those early weapons would have amounted to anything.

In addition, for every weapon of war there is typically a counter. We don't have spells that counter cannon in D&D because it's not a core assumption.

Protection from Normal Missiles FTW

 

[Oofta]

Protection from Normal Missiles FTW

I was thinking more along the lines of a "Seek Gunpowder" spell that sent out a cloud of sparks. But there are many options.

 

[MNblockhead]

For example, say you are fighting Orcus and he uses his wand to summon 500 HP of undead. Rather than one or two undead dragons, it will be much more scary and fun combat to bring in a lot of glass canon undead with a variety of special attacks. Think alips, ghosts, haints, poltergeists, maybe throw in both a demilich and some flame skulls. Which floating head is the demilich? In this example, I actually LOWER the HP of the individual minions so I can bring more of them in. The action economy starts to make things scary, I only allow one arcana check per turn so they are going to have to start combat without knowing what everything is (I don't tell them what the things are, only that they see various spirits and floating skulls). It forces meaningful strategic choices, especially with things that have high mobility, can go ethereal, are incorporeal, melt/hide in shadows, etc.

So this backfired on my big bad. I had the Avatar of Orcus use his wand to summon a lot of glass cannon mooks by going with lower or minimum HP undead that allowed me to get more higher CR undead than I would have been able to using the average HP number in the stat blocks. My thinking is having more undead, higher CR mooks spread around the room would mean more opportunities for drop-to-zero HP wails, possession attempts, charms, etc. The wizard wished for an upcast forbiddance spell that would cover the entire massive "room" and be able to be cast in one action. I felt that was a fairly reasonable use of wish and let it work as intended, he successfully made his roll and didn't lose his ability to ever cast wish again. It greatly thinned out the lower-than-average HP minions. In hindsight, I should have had Orcus hold back on using that property of the wand. After the forbiddance was cast, Orcus would have lost a lot of existing undead minions, but could have teleported to an area of the lair not covered by forbiddance (forbiddance prevents teleporting IN, doesn't say anything about preventing teleporting OUT), and then using his wand. But it is hard to anticipate what the PCs will do. I was focused more on hitting the party hard to stop them or soften them up before they could get in range of the Avatar.

Next session will be the direct fight with the Avatar of Orcus and a small number of more powerful minions still standing. Will need to put him into melee to start doing enough targeted damage on the PCs so the Power Word Kill lair actions start putting some real fear into the PCs.

 

[the Jester]

That's kinda false.
Most of the classes have straight damage or healing powers or power with little to track.

The best defenders just attack attack attack mark.
The best striker is the ranger that just attacks at lot.

That's not actually the best way to be a defender or striker. IMHO.

A noticeable amount of the community want to have aspects in the game which keep them from playing the game.

High level play is slower than low level play. That doesn't make it unplayable.

 

[Distracted DM]

Pogre, did you talk anywhere (another post I missed maybe) about the high level campaign you just wrapped up? If not, uh, can I pick your brain apart right here?

Is there anything specific you need to know about high level games? I've run multiple high level 5e campaigns to 18+, just wrapped one a couple weeks ago.

 

[Quickleaf]

Is there anything specific you need to know about high level games? I've run multiple high level 5e campaigns to 18+, just wrapped one a couple weeks ago.

Oh, I've enjoyed @pogre 's photos of their gaming table, and I was struck by their comments "our combats play fast" and "we just wrapped at 19th/20th level" – which AFAICT seem to be exceptional as I've more often heard that combats take longer at higher levels.

The context was they have a very combat-centric fast-and-fun beer-and-pretzels D&D game.

I don't have any context for your high-level games, so no questions right now, but if you'd like to share something on your mind, go ahead!

 

[nevin]

If you want high level games to go faster you have to be harsh. these are high level characters. In combat get a 3 minute egg timer if they can't decide what to do in 3 minutes consider it a move to the bottom of the initiative order and then give them one more chance at the end of the round. No decision in time means standing there unable to decide and lose the action. I've played and run a few gmes like that and it's amazing how much faster the game runs. Don't ever let someone stop the game and look up options to decide what to do in combat. they are supposed to be competent in high level games.

 

[Oofta]

If you want high level games to go faster you have to be harsh. these are high level characters. In combat get a 3 minute egg timer if they can't decide what to do in 3 minutes consider it a move to the bottom of the initiative order and then give them one more chance at the end of the round. No decision in time means standing there unable to decide and lose the action. I've played and run a few gmes like that and it's amazing how much faster the game runs. Don't ever let someone stop the game and look up options to decide what to do in combat. they are supposed to be competent in high level games.

We call the "thinking forever about what to do" analysis paralysis. No, you probably aren't going to come up with exactly the most optimal actions to take on your turn every time, but thinking for more than a minute or two likely isn't going to change that.

 

[Reynard]

We call the "thinking forever about what to do" analysis paralysis. No, you probably aren't going to come up with exactly the most optimal actions to take on your turn every time, but thinking for more than a minute or two likely isn't going to change that.

Plus, peole -- even veterans -- make bad decisions in the heat of the moment all the time. Sometimes it is catastrophic. other times it is inspired. just DO SOMETHING and keep going.