D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Kannik]

But what we don't know is this- was it because Hasbro had such insane expectations, and 4e didn't match them? Or is it because, even though it wasn't meeting the expectations, the trends were so bad?

Heh, that's the metaphorical 20 billion dollar question, though maybe it's better to say here the $100 million dollar question. From what Chris Sims, Owen Stephens, and others have noted, 4e sold better than PF but that couldn't satisfy those internal targets.... but again, as we've noted above, both PF and 4e sales together likely wouldn't have hit those targets either! Target not met, panic ensues, other avenues fail to pan out (such as those listed by @deganawida), flailing happens... and -- fortunately for us and the hobby! -- someone chose to hit RESET rather than DELETE and we have a D&D brand that lives on today.

 

[Hussar]

Regarding the preview books, a lot of people aren't willing to spend money on game books that have no game mechanics and in fact exist solely as advertisement the target has to pay for to read. I know I wasn't.

Not really the point.

There were still regular blog posts from the dev’s, regular podcast and interviews, preview articles in abundance and if you really wanted, you could often speak directly to people from WotC. They posted here and their own forums regularly.

It’s not like it was hard to find information.

 

[Parmandur]

Not really the point.

There were still regular blog posts from the dev’s, regular podcast and interviews, preview articles in abundance and if you really wanted, you could often speak directly to people from WotC. They posted here and their own forums regularly.

It’s not like it was hard to find information.

A lot of that dis more harm than good: I was lurker at the time, butnI distinctly remember the cringe of WotC staff arguing with folks on the forum here in completely immature flame wars.

 

[Hussar]

I can attest to this. Public play mods rarely had time for rituals, and were written with the idea that you'd achieve noncombat success in one very specific way (some sort of skill challenge). I ran into this problem during the CALI mods- we had a goal, we had to cross a desert to get there. The mod had this detailed extended skill challenge to allow us to make good time and not use up all our water and such.

"Or," my Death Priest of Dumathoin suggested, "I could cast this ritual that gives us all spectral mounts, and this other ritual that makes it so you don't need food or water for 24 hours. It'll cost me some residuum, but I don't really mind."

The DM blinked at me and said (paraphrased), "You could do that, but then there won't be much of an adventure."

Heh. This was known as “Riding the Kank” in our Dark Sun game. Our resident power gamer created a character with ludicrous ritual powers who could reliably summon flying mounts for a day.

Now we no longer had any overland travelling problems. Skipped all the overland stuff. In a Dark Sun game. :/ kinda missing the point of the game.

 

[Hussar]

A lot of that dis more harm than good: I was lurker at the time, butnI distinctly remember the cringe of WotC staff arguing with folks on the forum here in completely immature flame wars.

It did rather chum the waters the second anyone from WotC said anything.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I can attest to this. Public play mods rarely had time for rituals, and were written with the idea that you'd achieve noncombat success in one very specific way (some sort of skill challenge). I ran into this problem during the CALI mods- we had a goal, we had to cross a desert to get there. The mod had this detailed extended skill challenge to allow us to make good time and not use up all our water and such.

"Or," my Death Priest of Dumathoin suggested, "I could cast this ritual that gives us all spectral mounts, and this other ritual that makes it so you don't need food or water for 24 hours. It'll cost me some residuum, but I don't really mind."

The DM blinked at me and said (paraphrased), "You could do that, but then there won't be much of an adventure."

This is a general problem with high magic games with strategically applicable functions. Its why games as varied as 13th Age and Savage Worlds are very hesitant to supply that.

 

[billd91]

One thing that people don't get with Paizo is just how much it was BORN OUT OF WotC! This was not some outside company creating a new game. This was people who were all ex-WotC, had been publishing Dragon magazine (and not just behind the scenes) for quite some time, etc. PF1e was simply a continuation of activity that they'd been engaged in both within WotC and as a service provider FOR WotC. WotC's missteps with their online business model, and their 3.5e to 4e transition in general opened up the opportunity, but it was almost like WotC itself split in 2 and fought itself! I mean, Paizo and WotC are both about 5 miles from my house in opposite directions, they are very connected (and certainly were very very connected 15 years ago).

NO other company made hay on 3.5e to 4e. It was a unique opportunity that really only existed for Paizo. It wasn't created by the nature of 4e as a game, it was created through basic business mistakes of WotC and the existence of a group of ex-employees right down the street.

Key to that unique opportunity wasn't merely that Paizo had grown out of former WotC employees, since they had specifically started up to help WotC outsource the publishing of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, they had a mailing list of subscribers. So they not only had the know-how, they had a ready made body of former customers, some of whom were smarting from the loss of the magazines and primed to jump ship from WotC.
It's an open and unanswerable question what 4e's trajectory would have been without Paizo and Pathfinder. My guess is it still wouldn't have fared much better since 3.5e was still there and eminently playable. There was always a haven for people not feeling the lure of 4e.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Key to that unique opportunity wasn't merely that Paizo had grown out of former WotC employees, since they had specifically started up to help WotC outsource the publishing of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, they had a mailing list of subscribers. So they not only had the know-how, they had a ready made body of former customers, some of whom were smarting from the loss of the magazines and primed to jump ship from WotC.
It's an open and unanswerable question what 4e's trajectory would have been without Paizo and Pathfinder. My guess is it still wouldn't have fared much better since 3.5e was still there and eminently playable. There was always a haven for people not feeling the lure of 4e.

Yeah, but it doesn't do to underestimate the number of people who consider a game "dead" without ongoing support. In practice, PF1e supplied that for 3.5 players.

 

[James Gasik]

Wouldn't every version of D&D have that problem, though? In 5E the issue would be that there are basically no rules for non-combat, so there is no "system" for a player to bypass using spells in the first place, but even if such a system could be created it could just as easily be bypassed by spells

It's not really a flaw that is unique to 4E. It is a typical D&D problem where spells can solve any problem.

Not every adventure- I remember Under the Dark Fist having a section where you may need to do spell research in order to bypass a thick asteroid field. But yes, you're not wrong, typically adventure writers don't know what players have access to. It just surprised me that a core feature of some classes, who got Ritual casting for free (like Wizard or Bards) was effectively ignored.

I'd have liked a little troubleshooting section for things like this "hey what if players can skip to the end?".

 

[pemerton]

I do wonder if, like you two are claiming, people were aware of exactly what they were getting with 4e... why did so many still buy it and then end up disliking it?

Ask them. But did you actually look over the threads I pointed you to?