D&D (2024) The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules

[Clint_L]

While I always appreciate alliteration, these are not serious suggestions for OneD&D, are they?

And it seems to me that any other word you substitute is likely to get nitpicked the same way: "But is that really what we mean when we talk about power?" and so on. Kinda seems like a solution in search of a problem.

 

[mellored]

While I always appreciate alliteration, these are not serious suggestions for OneD&D, are they?

No.
It would break backwards compatible to change any of the skills or attributes.

Just felt like alliterating.

And it seems to me that any other word you substitute is likely to get nitpicked the same way: "But is that really what we mean when we talk about power?" and so on. Kinda seems like a solution in search of a problem.

Oh definitely. There will never be a perfect way to reduce the complexity of human attributes to just a few categories.

But really, these 6 attributes have stood the test of time pretty well.

Even cyberpunk 2077 hasn't really changed things up much, with Body, Reflex, Intelligence, Tech, and Cool.

 

[James Gasik]

No.
It would break backwards compatible to change any of the skills or attributes.

Just felt like alliterating.

Oh definitely. There will never be a perfect way to reduce the complexity of human attributes to just a few categories.

But really, these 6 attributes have stood the test of time pretty well.

Even cyberpunk 2077 hasn't really changed things up much, with Body, Reflex, Intelligence, Tech, and Cool.

Body seems better than Strength and Constitution. And what's cooler than being Cool?

Spoiler

Ice Cold!

 

[Maxperson]

Have you ever climbed somewhere dangerous? Like a high tree branch or a crumbly cliff?

Of course climbing requires handeye coordination. Especially balance.

Likewise pure physical strength to catch oneself, lift oneself upward, and maneuver oneself.

Strength is agility.

intelligence is also charisma and up is also down.

 

[Maxperson]

Arguably a lot of actions should take two stats instead of one. Lockpicking seems very Dex+Int, while Pocketpicking seems more Dex+Wis or Dex+Cha.

I don't know about that. If you have a high wisdom, you are wise enough not to be picking pockets.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Is anyone actually struggling with this distinction in game, though? Everyone gets that you can have a monk with high dex and low strength and still be effective.

I don't think the issue a lot of people run into is "effectiveness" and more they run into "Archetype Functionality"

Take a character like Catwoman. She's a dexterity archetype, the nimble thief, what are somethings she should be able to do? Jump, climb, grapple individuals using her superior skill and speed to overcome their superior strength, knock opponents out with kicks, trip people... all of which are designated as "strength" abilities.

Now, some people see that and say "well clearly Catwoman is also strong and a proper version of her will have a high strength". But she also has high endurance, high charisma, high intelligence and high perception/wisdom. The only thing you CAN say she lacks is strength, because she is a dexterity archetype, not a strong woman archetype. And it is nearly impossible to make a character who has EVERYTHING. Which inevitably leads to the question... how do we get these archetypes to mechanically match their inspirations? Because, realistically in DnD terms, unless you are a scrawny scholar type... you are strong as a function of your role in the story.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Power
Precision
Perseverance
Details
Discernment
Dazzle

Sure, that could work. Details and Discernment are not clearly separate and I think Dazzle is not accurate (Magnetism is usually a good substitute for Charisma to represent force of personality) but it could work.

 

[Incenjucar]

I don't think the issue a lot of people run into is "effectiveness" and more they run into "Archetype Functionality"

Take a character like Catwoman. She's a dexterity archetype, the nimble thief, what are somethings she should be able to do? Jump, climb, grapple individuals using her superior skill and speed to overcome their superior strength, knock opponents out with kicks, trip people... all of which are designated as "strength" abilities.

Now, some people see that and say "well clearly Catwoman is also strong and a proper version of her will have a high strength". But she also has high endurance, high charisma, high intelligence and high perception/wisdom. The only thing you CAN say she lacks is strength, because she is a dexterity archetype, not a strong woman archetype. And it is nearly impossible to make a character who has EVERYTHING. Which inevitably leads to the question... how do we get these archetypes to mechanically match their inspirations? Because, realistically in DnD terms, unless you are a scrawny scholar type... you are strong as a function of your role in the story.

Superheroes generally start at peak human in most physical regards and then add powers and abilities on top of that. Fantasy RPGs lean toward a weaker baseline.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I don't think the issue a lot of people run into is "effectiveness" and more they run into "Archetype Functionality"

Take a character like Catwoman. She's a dexterity archetype, the nimble thief, what are somethings she should be able to do? Jump, climb, grapple individuals using her superior skill and speed to overcome their superior strength, knock opponents out with kicks, trip people... all of which are designated as "strength" abilities.

Now, some people see that and say "well clearly Catwoman is also strong and a proper version of her will have a high strength". But she also has high endurance, high charisma, high intelligence and high perception/wisdom. The only thing you CAN say she lacks is strength, because she is a dexterity archetype, not a strong woman archetype. And it is nearly impossible to make a character who has EVERYTHING. Which inevitably leads to the question... how do we get these archetypes to mechanically match their inspirations? Because, realistically in DnD terms, unless you are a scrawny scholar type... you are strong as a function of your role in the story.

This is the flaw with people wanting to draw parallels to, or to emulate, superheroes in D&D. Superheroes have high stats across the board.

Want to emulate a superhero like Catwoman or Batman, or other heroes who have high Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and/or Charisma scores? Use higher arrays or more generous stat generation methods. It's simple, and it doesn't break anything because the DM gets to modify the difficulty all they want. The only thing that 16s across the board does is make heroes less differentiated by ability score and be more differentiated by species, class, subclass, and equipment, and give heroes a slightly higher modifier on skills that they might normally suck at. It's not an auto-win.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

I don't think the issue a lot of people run into is "effectiveness" and more they run into "Archetype Functionality

Take a character like Catwoman. She's a dexterity archetype, the nimble thief, what are somethings she should be able to do? Jump, climb, grapple individuals using her superior skill and speed to overcome their superior strength, knock opponents out with kicks, trip people... all of which are designated as "strength" abilities.

Now, some people see that and say "well clearly Catwoman is also strong and a proper version of her will have a high strength". But she also has high endurance, high charisma, high intelligence and high perception/wisdom. The only thing you CAN say she lacks is strength, because she is a dexterity archetype, not a strong woman archetype. And it is nearly impossible to make a character who has EVERYTHING. Which inevitably leads to the question... how do we get these archetypes to mechanically match their inspirations? Because, realistically in DnD terms, unless you are a scrawny scholar type... you are strong as a function of your role in the story.

Superheroes are impossible to emulate accurately in D&D because their skills transcend ability scores.

There's no way Catwoman would fail a climb check, so climbing for her isn't a climb check. It's an ability that grants her a climb speed.

Coincidentally this is why non-magical characters in D&D tend to suck, because the only way to transcend ability scores and skill checks is to use magic.