D&D (2024) The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules

[James Gasik]

The game works fine with moderate stats because DCs aren't crazy. But it is not against the rules to use higher stats.

If all the players want to play "superheroes," they should have a conversation with their DM. If the DM doesn't want them to have higher stats, and wants to inflate DCs so they fail often, the group needs to decide how they want to move forward. How important is this DM's game to them?

I'm not saying "hey let's play superheroes". But when someone envisions a character and they want to be able to perform feats another fictional character can do, it feels like saying "well, you shouldn't emulate a superhero because that's aiming to high" might be problematic when many non-superhero characters are built differently than D&D characters.

If you wanted an accurate representation of a D&D character, you'd probably have to start looking at supporting or background characters. Primary protagonists are generally have way more diverse talents than a standard D&D character, especially ones from the genres D&D tends to emulate.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Sure, ideally, but also... no, no that isn't where those power levels actually hit.

Catwoman is the example from before, and she is below Batman surely, right? Level 8? Here is a page from an old comic

Using a whip to destroy manacles. Manacles have 15 hp. Whip is 1d4+5 assuming she has a 20 dex. If she crit, and dealt max damage that would be 13. She would need to have a 24 dexterity to pull that off in DnD.

I'm not saying that the cooperative fantasy role-playing game based on random chance can accurately portray the non-random, authored superhero stories of comic books (that only work because the author decides that it happens).

Superhero stories don't take place in, or follow the rules of, the D&D universe, and I don't consider it a worthwhile practice to try and translate the numbers precisely. They have different core conceits.

What are you trying to accomplish by showcasing the difference between a comic book god-hero shattering a mountain range and a D&D story? Are you saying that D&D has to fulfill that fantasy? Because I don't think it does.

 

[Yaarel]

Sure, ideally, but also... no, no that isn't where those power levels actually hit.

Catwoman is the example from before, and she is below Batman surely, right? Level 8? Here is a page from an old comic


Using a whip to destroy manacles. Manacles have 15 hp. Whip is 1d4+5 assuming she has a 20 dex. If she crit, and dealt max damage that would be 13. She would need to have a 24 dexterity to pull that off in DnD.

I view Catwoman and Batman as comparable to the same master tier (levels 9−12). This tier is already superhuman, but in the sense of an action movie genre that remains near the upper limits of human possibility.

I noted Catwoman has an athletic Strength Score in the "20s", including the possibility of a 24 Strength Score.

You quantify the material of manacles to be 15 hit points. The normal D&D whip deals 1d4 damage. Whence Strength Score 24, full damage, and crit is necessary to break manacles with a single hit.

However, these are metal manacles. A normal whip is leather or its equivalent − which can NEVER shatter metal manacles. Thus this cannot be a normal whip. The whip is necessarily a special material or perhaps her cat-lives magic alters it, so that in any case, it is a D&D magic item. It might deal 1d6 damage or 1d8, and whether tech or magic is equivalent to a D&D 5e +2 weapon.

Thus even with the +2 magic item, Catwoman might simply have a Strength Score 20.

However, because of her extreme superhuman athleticism, I prefer to stat her with a Strength Score of at least 22.

As mentioned earlier, this Strength score doesnt apply to her Weightlifting skill (beyond the ability to throw her own bodys weight around remarkably).

Meanwhile, here is the after math of a blow from Thor against a powerful foe

Please tell me what 20th level DnD character can hit hard enough to SHATTER NEARBY MOUNTAINS. Not the mountains he hit, the mountains NEAR HIM when he hit SOMETHING ELSE. He literally shook a planet. No 20th level character is capable of that.

The Thor of Marvel Super Heroes deals "Unearthly" damage beyond his "Monstrous" Strength. He is an example of a superhero who has special superpowers relating to Weightlifting, Carrying Capacity, and here, shattering unattended objects.

This kind of superpower is comparable to D&D spells, such as slot 8 Earthquake.

Again, Thor is a superhero concept that is suitable for the legend tier (levels 17−20).


(By the way, some people have the impression that Norse Thor (Þórr) is weak without his magic belt. However, his mother is Jǫrð, who is arguably the most powerful and strongest Jǫtunn in existence. Thor himself without magic items exhibits Jǫtunn strength (and wrath). What the belt does is make him stronger than every other Jǫtunn.)

 

[mellored]

Sure, that could work. Details and Discernment are not clearly separate and I think Dazzle is not accurate (Magnetism is usually a good substitute for Charisma to represent force of personality) but it could work.

Power
Precision
Perseverance
Memory
Mindful
Manipulate

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My monk, who is now using the 2024 playtest rules, can wreck the face of any caster of a comparable level. Seriously. It isn't close.

So now finally the monk is balanced. Thank god.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm not saying that the cooperative fantasy role-playing game based on random chance can accurately portray the non-random, authored superhero stories of comic books (that only work because the author decides that it happens).

Superhero stories don't take place in, or follow the rules of, the D&D universe, and I don't consider it a worthwhile practice to try and translate the numbers precisely. They have different core conceits.

What are you trying to accomplish by showcasing the difference between a comic book god-hero shattering a mountain range and a D&D story? Are you saying that D&D has to fulfill that fantasy? Because I don't think it does.

Do you have @Yaarel blocked? Because that post you are quoting is a response to them saying that the various tiers of DnD align to the power of comic book characters. Specifically they claimed:

The master tier (levels 9−12) is where humanesque superheroes start, like Batman, Daredevil, and Beowulf.
The grandmaster tier (levels 13−16) is heightened and world altering, like Captain America, Storm, and so on.
The legend tier (levels 17−20) is for the cosmic powers, like Superman and Thor.
The epic tier (levels 21−24) tends to be for stuff that is also beyond most superhero main characters.

I disagree with that statement. Which I know, I dared invoke a superhero character to highlight the archetype of the Phantom Thief, but as I've stated a dozen times by now, I did not do so because I am under any illusion that DnD characters are anywhere close to the middle, let alone the top, of the power scaling of fictional characters in literature and especially not in superhero literature.

So, what was I trying to accomplish with that post? I was trying to demonstrate that Yaarel was incorrect in their assessment.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Power
Precision
Perseverance
Memory
Mindful
Manipulate

All three M's are lacking in my opinion on that. Maybe you could get by on Memory, but the other two are terrible.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I view Catwoman and Batman as comparable to the same master tier (levels 9−12). This tier is already superhuman, but in the sense of an action movie genre that remains near the upper limits of human possibility.

Sure, that doesn't really change the point even if you bring her up to 12th level.

I noted Catwoman has an athletic Strength Score in the "20s", including the possibility of a 24 Strength Score.

And I noted she has been tied to chairs with normal rope, and restrained by what are effectively bandits. I don't think you can justify her having the strength of giants, yet being man-handled by Steve the Thug when caught off-guard.

You quantify the material of manacles to be 15 hit points. The normal D&D whip deals 1d4 damage. Whence Strength Score 24, full damage, and crit is necessary to break manacles with a single hit.

However, these are metal manacles. A normal whip is leather or its equivalent − which can NEVER shatter metal manacles. Thus this cannot be a normal whip. The whip is necessarily a special material or perhaps her cat-lives magic alters it, so that in any case, it is a D&D magic item. It might deal 1d6 damage or 1d8, and whether tech or magic is equivalent to a D&D 5e +2 weapon.

Thus even with the +2 magic item, Catwoman might simply have a Strength Score 20.

However, because of her extreme superhuman athleticism, I prefer to stat her with a Strength Score of at least 22.

Would you like to point to the rules in the PHB, under Manacles, where they say they are immune to damage from whips? I missed it. It just says they have 15 hp. And since a whip can kill a creature made of stone (Earth Elemental, Ghaleb Dhur, ect) and a creature made of metal (Animated Armor, Helmed Horror, Shield Guardian, ect) I don't see where you justify saying that it cannot harm metal. And the entire rest of this section relies on that false assumption.

The Thor of Marvel Super Heroes deals "Unearthly" damage beyond his "Monstrous" Strength. He is an example of a superhero who has special superpowers relating to Weightlifting, Carrying Capacity, and here, shattering unattended objects.

This kind of superpower is comparable to D&D spells, such as slot 8 Earthquake.

Again, Thor is a superhero concept that is suitable for the legend tier (levels 17−20).

You can make up terms all you want. Mountains aren't "unattended objects" and the level 8 Earthquake spell cannot shatter the peaks of multiple mountains. I mean, can you even provide a set of abilities in RAW DnD that a melee character could use to make a single strike and shake a planet?

Sure, he has "unearthly monstrous strength" whatever you decide to define that as. The limit of strength in DnD is 30. Do you think a 30 strength as presented in DnD has ever shaken a planet with a single blow?

 

[mellored]

All three M's are lacking in my opinion on that. Maybe you could get by on Memory, but the other two are terrible.

Charisma is used to Manipulate. Seems far more accurate IMO.

I agree Mindful is a bit of a stretch, but I couldn't think of another M word for wisdom.

 

[Yaarel]

And I noted she has been tied to chairs with normal rope, and restrained by what are effectively bandits. I don't think you can justify her having the strength of giants, yet being man-handled by Steve the Thug when caught off-guard.

Restraints have a DC to break out of. For example metal manacles are DC 20.

The "Weightlifting" skill would also apply to breaking out of restraints, and for "bend bars lift gates" stuff generally. Catwoman would lack proficiency in this, as well as lack any special feats relating to it.

Strength equals athleticism. Not necessarily weightlifting.

Would you like to point to the rules in the PHB, under Manacles, where they say they are immune to damage from whips? I missed it.

As DM, I rely on narrative adjudication for any effort. It must make sense before a dice roll can ever happen.

According to Objects, in the DMs Guide (246), the character must have the "right tool" to destroy an object. "Can a Fighter cut through a section of stone wall with a sword? No." "Use common sense."

It just says they have 15 hp. And since a whip can kill a creature made of stone (Earth Elemental, Ghaleb Dhur, ect) and a creature made of metal (Animated Armor, Helmed Horror, Shield Guardian, ect) I don't see where you justify saying that it cannot harm metal. And the entire rest of this section relies on that false assumption.

The 5e rules say more than merely hit points.

You can make up terms all you want. Mountains aren't "unattended objects" and the level 8 Earthquake spell cannot shatter the peaks of multiple mountains. I mean, can you even provide a set of abilities in RAW DnD that a melee character could use to make a single strike and shake a planet?

Part of emulating the superhero genre is designing the appropriate spells at the appropriate levels to represent genre go-tos.

Things like flight and laser beam eyes are already done.

Players can alter the thematics of any spell to better match the superhero concept.

Sure, he has "unearthly monstrous strength" whatever you decide to define that as. The limit of strength in DnD is 30. Do you think a 30 strength as presented in DnD has ever shaken a planet with a single blow?

A spell or magical ritual can shake a planet. In the Forgotten Realms and other official settings, cataclysms caused by spells are part of the world history.

In the comic book cited, Thor used his most powerful magic possible.