D&D General Reassesing Robert E Howards influence on D&D +

[pemerton]

How Howard talks about we black people is almost always racist.

This is what I was pointing towards. (For me it's not "we" personally, but is "we" for my children. Which helps drive it home, as in "Do I want them to have to suffer this?")

 

[QuentinGeorge]

In my view, the Tolkien influence is way greater than Gygax cares to admit (I think he downplays it due the early lawsuit) but D&D character motivations are not Tolkien-esque.

Tolkien has a world shaped implictly by a very Catholic morality. D&D takes the Tolkien window-dressing and then stuffs it full of characters from (in the 70s) Howard or Lieber stories or (now) Young Adult Fiction. Tolkien's work has a very British view of the world that is simply alien to average American, conservative or liberal.

(Look at the difference between Middle Earth's sacred kingship and the strange forms monarchies take in most D&D settings, and how D&D has more of the "eternal frontier" than Middle Earth ever did).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

In my view, the Tolkien influence is way greater than Gygax cares to admit (I think he downplays it due the early lawsuit) but D&D character motivations are not Tolkien-esque.

Tolkien has a world shaped implictly by a very Catholic morality. D&D takes the Tolkien window-dressing and then stuffs it full of characters from (in the 70s) Howard or Lieber stories or (now) Young Adult Fiction. Tolkien's work has a very British view of the world that is simply alien to average American, conservative or liberal.

(Look at the difference between Middle Earth's sacred kingship and the strange forms monarchies take in most D&D settings, and how D&D has more of the "eternal frontier" than Middle Earth ever did).

Well, as someone who played D&D from pretty much the very beginning, and pretty much learned to read by reading Tolkien I always thought it was hilariously disingenuous of Gary to claim that Tolkien wasn't the PRIMARY influence on D&D, the one that set the baseline expectations of play and of milieu. Granted, a lot of other stuff got thrown in there on top, but the core of it is at least significantly Tolkienesque. Even Gary's own Greyhawk setting aspires to some sort of grand view of history which echoes that. I mean, think about this, Howard, Leiber, etc. etc. etc. virtually never talk about the history of their worlds at all! Moorcock is an exception, but he's still not really attempting to build some sort of grand epic world arc. Gary is closer to JRRT than he is to Howard, flat out.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Well, as someone who played D&D from pretty much the very beginning, and pretty much learned to read by reading Tolkien I always thought it was hilariously disingenuous of Gary to claim that Tolkien wasn't the PRIMARY influence on D&D, the one that set the baseline expectations of play and of milieu. Granted, a lot of other stuff got thrown in there on top, but the core of it is at least significantly Tolkienesque. Even Gary's own Greyhawk setting aspires to some sort of grand view of history which echoes that. I mean, think about this, Howard, Leiber, etc. etc. etc. virtually never talk about the history of their worlds at all! Moorcock is an exception, but he's still not really attempting to build some sort of grand epic world arc. Gary is closer to JRRT than he is to Howard, flat out.

D&D is very much the trappings of Tolkien, yes. But in terms of actually capturing the essence and the meaning behind the work, its not even close.

 

[cbwjm]

Well, as someone who played D&D from pretty much the very beginning, and pretty much learned to read by reading Tolkien I always thought it was hilariously disingenuous of Gary to claim that Tolkien wasn't the PRIMARY influence on D&D, the one that set the baseline expectations of play and of milieu. Granted, a lot of other stuff got thrown in there on top, but the core of it is at least significantly Tolkienesque. Even Gary's own Greyhawk setting aspires to some sort of grand view of history which echoes that. I mean, think about this, Howard, Leiber, etc. etc. etc. virtually never talk about the history of their worlds at all! Moorcock is an exception, but he's still not really attempting to build some sort of grand epic world arc. Gary is closer to JRRT than he is to Howard, flat out.

While it may not come up much in the stories, Howard did create a history of the formation of the Hyborian Age and went so far as to include its fall, showing the conquests and mass migrations of people to form new civilisations while casting down others.

I don't actually know how much the history of middle earth comes up in Tolkien since I find his work a rather dry read, but with Conan, I think it is very much grounded in "the now" of Conan's stories so that while there may be ancient cities discovered and and later fled from, it doesn't really talk about how they came to be or the history of the people who dwell therein.

 

[pemerton]

Well, as someone who played D&D from pretty much the very beginning, and pretty much learned to read by reading Tolkien I always thought it was hilariously disingenuous of Gary to claim that Tolkien wasn't the PRIMARY influence on D&D, the one that set the baseline expectations of play and of milieu. Granted, a lot of other stuff got thrown in there on top, but the core of it is at least significantly Tolkienesque. Even Gary's own Greyhawk setting aspires to some sort of grand view of history which echoes that. I mean, think about this, Howard, Leiber, etc. etc. etc. virtually never talk about the history of their worlds at all! Moorcock is an exception, but he's still not really attempting to build some sort of grand epic world arc. Gary is closer to JRRT than he is to Howard, flat out.

I think the core party-level tropes are JRRT: the races, some of the classes, the whole idea of a "fellowship".

But Gygax's worldbuilding has strong REH elements - the WoG backstory is fallen empires and racialised migrations of peoples with barbarians and desert nomads a dime-a-dozen. It also has JRRT elements with the Kron Hills and Celene and so on.

Ultimately I put it closer to REH than JRRT because, just as REH's world was created for storytelling in - it's purely a vehicle, a bucket into which he can dip to find tropes - so WoG is purely for RPGing in - a bucket into which players an GM can dip to find tropes.

A corollary of the above is that I find attempts to take Greyhawk seriously - as if it could really be compared to, say, Middle Earth or even Le Guin's Earthsea - pretty pointless, even self-defeating.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think the core party-level tropes are JRRT: the races, some of the classes, the whole idea of a "fellowship".

But Gygax's worldbuilding has strong REH elements - the WoG backstory is fallen empires and racialised migrations of peoples with barbarians and desert nomads a dime-a-dozen. It also has JRRT elements with the Kron Hills and Celene and so on.

Ultimately I put it closer to REH than JRRT because, just as REH's world was created for storytelling in - it's purely a vehicle, a bucket into which he can dip to find tropes - so WoG is purely for RPGing in - a bucket into which players an GM can dip to find tropes.

A corollary of the above is that I find attempts to take Greyhawk seriously - as if it could really be compared to, say, Middle Earth or even Le Guin's Earthsea - pretty pointless, even self-defeating.

I would second this. I don't think Gygax was trying to do Tolkien style world building at all. I do think others who followed and put out stuff for D&D were leaning heavily into Tolkien but a lot of Gygaxian D&D to me really fits those Conan stories. One key difference is Gygax seems to be aiming more for a medieval vibe than Conan (and Conan was more pre-historical Ancient World kitchen sink). But a lot of AD&D has that kitchen sink aspect. I would see stuff like Dragonlance as more connected to Tolkien

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

While it may not come up much in the stories, Howard did create a history of the formation of the Hyborian Age and went so far as to include its fall, showing the conquests and mass migrations of people to form new civilisations while casting down others.

I don't actually know how much the history of middle earth comes up in Tolkien since I find his work a rather dry read, but with Conan, I think it is very much grounded in "the now" of Conan's stories so that while there may be ancient cities discovered and and later fled from, it doesn't really talk about how they came to be or the history of the people who dwell therein.

History is quite prevalent in LotR.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think the core party-level tropes are JRRT: the races, some of the classes, the whole idea of a "fellowship".

But Gygax's worldbuilding has strong REH elements - the WoG backstory is fallen empires and racialised migrations of peoples with barbarians and desert nomads a dime-a-dozen. It also has JRRT elements with the Kron Hills and Celene and so on.

Ultimately I put it closer to REH than JRRT because, just as REH's world was created for storytelling in - it's purely a vehicle, a bucket into which he can dip to find tropes - so WoG is purely for RPGing in - a bucket into which players an GM can dip to find tropes.

A corollary of the above is that I find attempts to take Greyhawk seriously - as if it could really be compared to, say, Middle Earth or even Le Guin's Earthsea - pretty pointless, even self-defeating.

Yeah, I would never compare WoG with Middle Earth in terms of being a 'serious' world building. I wouldn't compare REH's Hyperboria to ME either. Tolkien is operating at a different level. Howard is just churning out pop cultural ideas rehashed from pulps. Yes, he has a 'history' that he casually referenced here and there, but that's nothing like Tolkien's 10 thousand year story arc where every part of his writing fits specifically into the whole.

 

[cbwjm]

Lost city in a foreboding jungle, perfect for adventure and very Conan-esque:

https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/latin-a...-rival-the-romans-emerge-in-amazon-rainforest