D&D General Reassesing Robert E Howards influence on D&D +

[Voadam]

Well, no. D&D Wizard spells came directly from Jack Vance's Dying Earth series. I thought everyone knew that.

Not quite.

D&D spells started out as chainmail spells (fireball, lightning bolt, cloudkill, hallucinatory terrain) which were magic analogues for artillery, howitzers, and mustard gas and such for turning miniatures wargaming from Napoleonic and WWI to fantasy.

Vance came in as the Vancian spell slot system in D&D of a few powerful memorized/prepared spells at a time that get used up as one shots when cast until prepared again. Also some individual spells like prismatic spray and the sytlism of giving fantastical names to certain idiosyncratic spells like Tenser's floating disc and Bigby's grasping hand.

 

[M.L. Martin]

It's not Lord of the Rings or Conan.

OD&D is Lankhmar. It is shocking the first time you read the early Lankhmar books -- they could be official TSR D&D novels.

Mike Mornard, part of Gygax's original group, described OD&D as "Leiber and Vance blended together and garnished with shaved Tolkien."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Mike Mornard, part of Gygax's original group, described OD&D as "Leiber and Vance blended together and garnished with shaved Tolkien."

The first time I read Dying Earth it again felt like a D&D novel in the way the spellcasters and rogues all behaved and talked to each other (and, of course, a bunch of the spell names). And like with Lankhmar, it was obviously the other way around.

 

[Kurotowa]

Mike Mornard, part of Gygax's original group, described OD&D as "Leiber and Vance blended together and garnished with shaved Tolkien."

Indeed. The Tolkien influence is obvious to more people because we're more familiar with it. Either from reading the books or watching the films, Tolkien has stayed in favor. Meanwhile Leiber and Vance have heavily fallen out of circulation. So those go unnoticed and unremarked, because people don't know them when they see them.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think it is fair to say there were a number of sources of inspiration for D&D (which is why something like Appendix N can be useful). Three Hearts, Three Lions is another example (particularly on Alignment)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Mike Mornard, part of Gygax's original group, described OD&D as "Leiber and Vance blended together and garnished with shaved Tolkien."

I think it's fairest to say that for each character archetype, world building idea,

Indeed. The Tolkien influence is obvious to more people because we're more familiar with it. Either from reading the books or watching the films, Tolkien has stayed in favor. Meanwhile Leiber and Vance have heavily fallen out of circulation. So those go unnoticed and unremarked, because people don't know them when they see them.

I'm old enough to have read all of them at more-or-less the same time, along with REH, HPL, Moorcock, Silverberg, Anderson, Norton, Saberhagen, etc. etc. etc. So, my recognition of a large part of the substrate of D&D classes and lore as being Tolkienesque in a certain sense was more based on the striking amount of detail cribbed directly from LotR.

I think character archetypes are also so general that, yes, Grey Mouser is clearly a big inspiration for the thief class, etc. but to a large degree its hard to say these things are specifically modeling one particular character, except in details like Rangers and Crystal Balls, or Thieves and Scrolls where there's an obvious specific inspiration, or in terms of every one of the Demi-human (PC available) races comes straight from Tolkien.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I seem to recall Pratchett mentioning Conan as the inspiration for Guards! Guards! as well. He wanted to know more about the characters who seemed to only exist for Conan to fight.

There's is so much 70s-80s fantasy whether it be RPG or fiction that is heavily influenced by Conan, most likely because for people born in the 40s-50s that's what they were reading. It's why we're getting a whole bunch of Harry Potter pastiches emerging now.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

The first time I read Dying Earth it again felt like a D&D novel in the way the spellcasters and rogues all behaved and talked to each other (and, of course, a bunch of the spell names). And like with Lankhmar, it was obviously the other way around.

I think I once posted on another thread that its basically "Conan and the Grey Weasel wander around Middle Earth."

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think character archetypes are also so general that, yes, Grey Mouser is clearly a big inspiration for the thief class, etc. but to a large degree its hard to say these things are specifically modeling one particular character, except in details like Rangers and Crystal Balls, or Thieves and Scrolls where there's an obvious specific inspiration, or in terms of every one of the Demi-human (PC available) races comes straight from Tolkien.

It incredibly hard to miss that, whatever other influences may have applied, the details of the OD&D paladin were based on the version of Ogier du Danske from Three Hearts and Three Lions.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It incredibly hard to miss that, whatever other influences may have applied, the details of the OD&D paladin were based on the version of Ogier du Danske from Three Hearts and Three Lions.

Oh, yeah, that one I'd sort of forgotten, but yeah, each class really does kind of map to a specific character in something, but the only category that is entirely taken from one work is the races all coming from Tolkien. Especially when you realize that elves, dwarves, and halflings really don't appear in any of the other sources, or only in a rather different form (IE there are elves in other related works, but not Tolkienesque ones).