D&D General Styles of D&D Play

[Maxperson]

Yup, that's the frame. Any wonder why so many saw the best way to get through it was to talk the DM into just letting everyone use their best skill? If you ask me, that system incentivizes "roll-play".

Maybe because the 4e PHB says,

"It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face."

And the 5e DMG says under step 3,

"You don’t need to make an exhaustive list, but try to define categories of actions the characters might take. Sometimes characters might decide to do exactly what you anticipate, but often you need to take what a player wants to do and find the closest match to the actions you’ve outlined."

And...

"When a player participates in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it."

It's pretty clear, and I never even played 4e, that the intent behind skill challenges is for the DM to do his best to anticipate what the players might try, but not to shoot down anything inventive the players come up with that could work for the challenge, even if not on the DM's list.

Edit: corrected some typos

 

[Maxperson]

This is word salad. It makes no sense. The scenario needs to be in a particular style if that game is meant to support that particular style. If I need to alter the scenario then that game doesn't support that style. How can a scenario be part of a style but needs to be adapted because of the game, but, the style doesn't need to be adapted?

It's not only not word salad, it's very clear. A survival scenario might have to adapt the methods of survival it uses, yes. But the survival style of play hasn't been altered one iota by doing so. A scenario that morphs from struggling to find food at 5th level(no druid) into survival on an erupting island hasn't changed the style of play at all. It's 100% survival style before, and 100% survival style after.

 

[Maxperson]

Note, a spell focus replaces the need for this. Again, another area where survival becomes less of an issue.

It still doesn't matter. It's very likely death sentence at that level.

 

[Maxperson]

Water Walk is a ritual. You can spam it.
I'm sayin Water Walk to the shore of the island then swim or fly off.

What island? They are on the island already. Flying I already covered. It doesn't last long enough to do anything but damage to those flying as they fall into the water far from any shore but the one they just left. Water walking will almost surely get you killed at that level on a dangerous ocean. They also need sleep. They aren't going to be able to spam it every hour for days on end. They'll die of exhaustion first. Especially since they will be fighting waves and currents.

So go for it. If the party is that eager to die, they can die. I don't have a problem with PCs dying due to poor decision making.

The other thing to consider is if the players are that set on not being in a survival scenario, why force them into something they aren't enjoying? Provide them a way off the island that they can survive and run a game that uses the styles that they like. If they DO like survival scenarios, they aren't going to try and suicide by walking hundreds of miles across a dangerous ocean

If you have a pouch and the spell prepped, it is likely you put a reed or straw in your pouch.

You didn't have the spell before you were stranded at 1st level.

Shark turn it to a Hack and Slash.

First, was there something I was unclear about when I said that games were almost always a mix of styles? Second, having some combat encounters does not make it hack 'n slash. hack 'n slash focuses on fights to the exclusion of pretty much everything else.

But the point of Survival game is to defeat the challenges with found materials and wits.

You can't outwit a volcano. You can either cast magic to escape or run.

Wrong. There's plenty you can do with your wits to survive and/or mitigate the effects. It's not like lava flows over every inch of an island.

 

[Imaro]

Except that the other points have already been answered. Need somewhere to sleep? Leomund's Hut - now you don't have to worry about inclement weather. Hell, you don't even have to worry about that volcano either, so long as the Hut lasts anyway. Flight, Water Breathing, Teleport, summoning. Remove diseases and poisons. Food and water are trivial.

So, what's left?

This is a fantasy world... at mid level you should be encountering environmental hazzards far beyond a little rain. That's the point, its not changing the survival genre it's tailoring it for a magic infused world.

 

[Hussar]

It's not only not word salad, it's very clear. A survival scenario might have to adapt the methods of survival it uses, yes. But the survival style of play hasn't been altered one iota by doing so. A scenario that morphs from struggling to find food at 5th level(no druid) into survival on an erupting island hasn't changed the style of play at all. It's 100% survival style before, and 100% survival style after.

If you must adapt your style to the game then the game is NOT SUPPORTING THAT STYLE OF PLAY. How is this not clear? There is no "struggle for survival" in 5e. There just isn't. There are so many ways that the 5e group simply bypasses these challenges that survival play is not supported by 5e. Moldvay Basic/Expert? Very well supported. The challenges you list - finding food, water, disease, volcanoes, all fantastic challenges in that system because the characters have virtually no ways to simply bypass these challenges. In 5e? These don't even register as challenges.

This is a fantasy world... at mid level you should be encountering environmental hazzards far beyond a little rain. That's the point, its not changing the survival genre it's tailoring it for a magic infused world.

But, I've given a clear example where I don't have to "tailor" anything. That's what a system supporting a style actually looks like. If you have to "tailor" the style to fit the system, then that system is not supporting that style of game.

Well, hang on. Let me back up a bit. Because honestly, I think this is why we're talking past each other. To me, if I have to "tailor" to the game, then that game is not supporting that style. You are defining support in a very different way than I am. Which is why we're not going to agree here. I do not define "this system supports this style" as "I have to tailor this style to this system". I simply don't.

 

[Imaro]

But, I've given a clear example where I don't have to "tailor" anything. That's what a system supporting a style actually looks like. If you have to "tailor" the style to fit the system, then that system is not supporting that style of game.

Well, hang on. Let me back up a bit. Because honestly, I think this is why we're talking past each other. To me, if I have to "tailor" to the game, then that game is not supporting that style. You are defining support in a very different way than I am. Which is why we're not going to agree here. I do not define "this system supports this style" as "I have to tailor this style to this system". I simply don't

When I say tailor I am talking genre which happens no matter what... survival play in a Gamma World game is not the same as survival in the wastes of cyberpunk. If your speaking to ready made hazard examples that most of your solutions won't bypass, well thats available as well in Tasha's.

 

[Maxperson]

If you must adapt your style to the game then the game is NOT SUPPORTING THAT STYLE OF PLAY. How is this not clear? There is no "struggle for survival" in 5e. There just isn't. There are so many ways that the 5e group simply bypasses these challenges that survival play is not supported by 5e. Moldvay Basic/Expert? Very well supported. The challenges you list - finding food, water, disease, volcanoes, all fantastic challenges in that system because the characters have virtually no ways to simply bypass these challenges. In 5e? These don't even register as challenges.

So as long as there is anything in the game to aid a PC in any way in a style of play, the game is not supporting the style? No. The existence of tools to aid the PC in survival not only doesn't go against that style of play, it SUPPORTS it. It's a tool to aid the PC in surviving. That's what the style is all about. Finding ways to survive. When the PC gains the ability to create food(and it's a big if that it will even happen), the scenario which is supposed to evolve over time simply evolves to a new way to challenge the PCs' survival.

It would be boring as hell to spend levels 1-20 just trying to find food to survive. You're supposed to overcome that low level challenge and come up against harder ones.

Create food and water aids the survival playstyle. It does not hinder it or force it to change.

But, I've given a clear example where I don't have to "tailor" anything. That's what a system supporting a style actually looks like. If you have to "tailor" the style to fit the system, then that system is not supporting that style of game.

No. That's what one way to support a playstyle looks like. It's not the only way. Just as in real life, there are many ways to support any given thing. You prefer the above method and that's fine. It doesn't mean, though, that D&D doesn't support or is even bad at supporting the style. It just differently supports it.

Well, hang on. Let me back up a bit. Because honestly, I think this is why we're talking past each other. To me, if I have to "tailor" to the game, then that game is not supporting that style. You are defining support in a very different way than I am. Which is why we're not going to agree here. I do not define "this system supports this style" as "I have to tailor this style to this system". I simply don't.

To me support is supplying me and the players with tools that aid in the style. Create food and water is support. Skills like survival and knowledge nature would be support. DM tools in creating challenges is support. And so on.

If the game needs to evolve past say scrounging food to survive and move on to surviving the volcano, that's not a lack of support. That's game play. The game should evolve into different challenges over time as the PCs grow.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe because the 4e PHB says,

"It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face."

And the 5e DMG says under step 3,

"You don’t need to make an exhaustive list, but try to define categories of actions the characters might take. Sometimes characters might decide to do exactly what you anticipate, but often you need to take what a player wants to do and find the closest match to the actions you’ve outlined."

And...

"When a player participates in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it."

It's pretty clear, and I never even played 4e, that the intent behind skill challenges is for the DM to do his best to anticipate what the players might try, but not to shoot down anything inventive the players come up with that could work for the challenge, even if not on the DM's list.

Edit: corrected some typos

Yeah. And I'm saying that framework encourages the players to do whatever they're best at and force the DM to make it fit. Not the way I like to play. Have fun though.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So the problem is that DMs are bad. Again. Believe it or not, not everything wrong in gaming can be traced to a bad DM.

The corollary to this is that 100% of new DMs are bad - DMing is a complex thing involving a wide skillset and no one comes out of the gate able to do them all well. And part of the job of the rules and guidance is to get DMs to a decent standard. When DMs are in large numbers doing something that is both bad and predictable and the rules encourage this then this is a problem with the rules.