D&D General Styles of D&D Play

[EzekielRaiden]

IMO, If I want the game system to get out of the way then a game system that gets out of the way is supporting me!

But that isn't the same as supporting the things you intend to do. It's supporting your desire to have nothing provided to you--your desire to not have support.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I consider almost any difference superior to "divine Big Brother surveillance."

I'm sure you would. I'm certainly not trying to convince you otherwise.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But they aren't continuing challenges... bigger and better might be a challenge but basic food, water and shelter are not a continuing concern in Valheim... How can they be when you can literally set up a farm of livestock.

EDIT: For reference... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_game

Getting food that will actually give you what you need to survive the challenges you're actually dealing with at the time is a continuing challenge. Like I said, death is a speed bump in most video games, so you have to use another metric.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Which is fine, but that's not how it usually goes. Usually you progress to harder and harder challenges as you master the prior ones.

Not how it usually goes in what? If 5e didn't have all the (mostly magic) buttons to remove survival challenges, I and others feel it would support the style better. As was said above, older editions of the game do a better job with this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

IMO, If I want the game system to get out of the way then a game system that gets out of the way is supporting me!

This is why the conversation is somewhat pointless, as no agreement can be reached on the definition of "support". Preferences always get in the way of understanding.

 

[Imaro]

Getting food that will actually give you what you need to survive the challenges you're actually dealing with at the time is a continuing challenge. Like I said, death is a speed bump in most video games, so you have to use another metric.

Yes but in D&D food is food... getting mundane food shouldn't be a problem even in a survival game of D&D at mid to high level. A better way of putting it would be that... Getting resources and managing them in order to survive greater and greater challenges... is the point of a survival game, and that can be done in D&D 5e.

 

[FrogReaver]

But that isn't the same as supporting the things you intend to do.

Yes it is. What you call support is only going to get in my way. I’d call it anti support.

It's supporting your desire to have nothing provided to you--your desire to not have support.

Something is provided to me. What you term lack of support is actually the freedom to decide how to handle these elements. Its huge!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes but in D&D food is food... getting mundane food shouldn't be a problem even in a survival game of D&D at mid to high level. A better way of putting it would be that... Getting resources and managing them in order to survive greater and greater challenges... is the point of a survival game, and that can be done in D&D 5e.

I agree with the principle, but feel WotC 5e has far too many magic buttons to alleviate challenges early to provide any real support to actually playing a survival game with its rules. Level Up 's changes to spells, class features, food, and the addition of good exploration rules fixes most of these problems for me, but the official game is in my opinion woefully inadequate.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes it is. What you call support is only going to get in my way. I’d call it anti support.

Something is provided to me. What you term lack of support is actually the freedom to decide how to handle these elements. Its huge!

Freedom in gaming is not given. It is untouched or curtailed. If you have it, the only favor the game did was one of omission.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes it is. What you call support is only going to get in my way. I’d call it anti support.

Something is provided to me. What you term lack of support is actually the freedom to decide how to handle these elements. Its huge!

How can you provide a lack? You can take away something that is there. But you cannot add an absence of something. That's not a thing.

You always have the freedom to decide. Some things just provide prewritten decisions. That's literally what "supporting" something means in a TTRPG design context: to provide prewritten material. An absence of material is not support. It is the default, empty state.