A neotrad TTRPG design manifesto

[clearstream]

This is all more empty noise that draws attention to the failure to make even the vagueist hint of even a single responsibility expectation or duty expected of players by neotrad

Players have the responsibilities they always had. Why does that change?

 

[hawkeyefan]

This is all more empty noise that draws attention to the failure to make even the vagueist hint of even a single responsibility expectation or duty expected of players by neotrad

When I run or play games that I think fall into the neotrad bucket, I expect players… in addition to their normal responsibilities… to have a strong character concept and to actively work toward that concept.

So if they’re out for revenge on those who slew their loved one, they should actively pursue that vengeance. Where as a more trad game would see such a goal as a distraction from the “main story”, neotrad should be including this quest for revenge in the game.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This accurately reflects "term of art" PtFO. The storygames version in which what is to be settled in play is dramatic protagonism.

It is observably be the case that for differing groups other subjects are to be settled in play. For example, when folk are ludically engaged with elevated appreciation of Gloranthan mysticism, it is neither dramatic story nor necessarily character identity that must be settled in play.

Essentially I am mirroring Edwards' concern, mutatis mutandis.

Right, and I suggest alternatives like 'Play to Win', and 'Play to Appreciate' etc. as more faithful alternatives to plastering 'Play to Find Out' on everything. I mean, this is just more succinct and direct. You play to win, and sure you could restate that to 'play to find out who wins' but that's just kind of artificial (and @Emberashh's point is not material here, as you CERTAINLY don't play to find out that you enjoy playing!). I won't burden anyone with a similar example from other agendas, but they're certainly easy enough to conjure up.

 

[clearstream]

When I run or play games that I think fall into the neotrad bucket, I expect players… in addition to their normal responsibilities… to have a strong character concept and to actively work toward that concept.

Something I was thinking about in not calling that out in particular, is that the innovations have utility to (and are seen in) games where the heightened focus is on something other than character concept. Play of Forbidden Lands for example, does use flags for dark secrets, relationships, and pride, which matters to the structure and drives of the party, however it's distinctly sandboxey - the journey is a large focus of play. Immersion in character feels important, but not necessarily pushing hard on character concept. Attribute damage pushes things to a grittier, more dangerous feel, that works against that.

 

[clearstream]

Right, and I suggest alternatives like 'Play to Win', and 'Play to Appreciate' etc. as more faithful alternatives to plastering 'Play to Find Out' on everything. I mean, this is just more succinct and direct. You play to win, and sure you could restate that to 'play to find out who wins' but that's just kind of artificial (and @Emberashh's point is not material here, as you CERTAINLY don't play to find out that you enjoy playing!). I won't burden anyone with a similar example from other agendas, but they're certainly easy enough to conjure up.

Yep. So if you didn't have my commitments regarding the lusory-duality and ludonarrative, observing them to apply to all TTRPG, you could get away with that and maybe it would feel satisfactory. The arguments that matter to my position will be around those commitments. For example showing that post-classical narratology has it wrong and some TTRPG falls outside the narrative overlap.

 

[tetrasodium]

Players have the responsibilities they always had.

Since this is your effort it falls upon you to expand upon that from the start. What are those responsibilities? While you are at it please continue by including expectations & so on.

Why does that change?

Well you are pushing for a playstyle that grants players additional power of control. That right there is a change and requires you to be clear about the responsibilities and expectations that go with those powers of control. Nearly every TTRPG devotes anywhere between a chapter or two up to a full book or more detailing & supporting the expectations responsibilities duties & so on for the GM's role because that GM role carries power & control that you are trying to assign to players. When you can't even admit that those newly empowered players should even have responsibilities & expectations alongside those newfound powers without first questioning the very idea it reeks of an effort to shield players with poor expectations.

 

[clearstream]

Since this is your effort it falls upon you to expand upon that from the start. What are those responsibilities? While you are at it please continue by including expectations & so on.

Follow the game principles. Follow the game rules. Say what follows from the fiction.

Well you are pushing for a playstyle that grants players additional power of control. That right there is a change and requires you to be clear about the responsibilities and expectations that go with those powers of control. Nearly every TTRPG devotes anywhere between a chapter or two up to a full book or more detailing & supporting the expectations responsibilities duties & so on for the GM's role because that GM role carries power & control that you are trying to assign to players. When you can't even admit that those newly empowered players should even have responsibilities & expectations alongside those newfound powers without first questioning the very idea it reeks of an effort to shield players with poor expectations.

To spell it out a bit more then, pursuant to their commitment to following the principles and rules of the game, should those principles and rules describe responsibilities, they shall grasp and uphold those responsibilities. Here are three examples from Blades in the Dark, one of the games that made mechanical innovations of the sort referred to.

You’re a daring scoundrel on the mean streets of a haunted city. You’re not a risk-averse, ordinary citizen. If you were, you’d indenture yourself to a workhouse and scrape out a meager living inside the status quo. You are daring, bold, ambitious, and ready to take big chances to live a bigger life.​

...​

As a player, you have the privilege of choosing which action to roll. But with this privilege comes a responsibility—choose the action that matches what your character is doing—not simply the dice pool you would like to roll.​

...​

You are a co-author of the game. If you want shortcomings and flaws to be part of the ongoing story, show your own character’s failure to make good decisions. If you want the world of Doskvol to be deadly, accept deadly harm when it’s time for your character to die.​

How to Play (for players) runs 21 pages in the edition I have. And that's not to say that you (the player) get to ignore the other hundreds of pages! Follow the game principles. Follow the game rules. Say what follows from the fiction. What that amounts to varies per game.

To put it another way, when I say

neotrad game designs ought to shift GM to or toward a role taken on by a player. At the least, a neotrad game text will contain rules that constrain and compel GM's voice in the ongoing negotiation of play

I am appealing to a strong norm that players do follow rules. This does not let players off the hook. It's not - "Hey GM, follow rules so that players won't have to" it's "Hey GM, follow rules as a player would."

 

[tetrasodium]

When I run or play games that I think fall into the neotrad bucket, I expect players… in addition to their normal responsibilities… to have a strong character concept and to actively work toward that concept.

So if they’re out for revenge on those who slew their loved one, they should actively pursue that vengeance. Where as a more trad game would see such a goal as a distraction from the “main story”, neotrad should be including this quest for revenge in the game.

This is not a thing that players need any extra powers of control over narrative or fiction to achieve even in "trad" play.

Follow the game principles. Follow the game rules. Say what follows from the fiction.


To spell it out a bit more then, pursuant to their commitment to following the principles and rules of the game, should those principles and rules describe responsibilities, they shall grasp and uphold those responsibilities. Here are three examples from Blades in the Dark, one of the games that made mechanical innovations of the sort referred to.

You’re a daring scoundrel on the mean streets of a haunted city. You’re not a risk-averse, ordinary citizen. If you were, you’d indenture yourself to a workhouse and scrape out a meager living inside the status quo. You are daring, bold, ambitious, and ready to take big chances to live a bigger life.​

...​

As a player, you have the privilege of choosing which action to roll. But with this privilege comes a responsibility—choose the action that matches what your character is doing—not simply the dice pool you would like to roll.​

...​

You are a co-author of the game. If you want shortcomings and flaws to be part of the ongoing story, show your own character’s failure to make good decisions. If you want the world of Doskvol to be deadly, accept deadly harm when it’s time for your character to die.​

How to Play (for players) runs 21 pages in the edition I have. And that's not to say that you (the player) get to ignore the other hundreds of pages! Follow the game principles. Follow the game rules. Say what follows from the fiction. What that amounts to varies per game.

To put it another way, when I say

I am appealing to a strong norm that players to follow rules. This does not let players off the hook. It's not - "Hey GM, follow rules so that players won't have to" it's "Hey GM, follow rules as a player would."

"don't cheat" is an incredibly low bar as far as responsibilities & expectations go. You buried it in a thicket of text too.

 

[clearstream]

This is not a thing that players need any extra powers of control over narrative or fiction to achieve even in "trad" play.

I agree, hence my earlier response.

"don't cheat" is an incredibly low bar as far as responsibilities & expectations go. You buried it in a thicket of text too.

Taking in consideration that I mention principles as well as rules, do you have in mind some other bar?

 

[tetrasodium]

I agree, hence my earlier response.

You've made dozens of responses in this thread, the deluge of verbosity across them fails to provide this statement with anything shedding clarity. Since you mention earlier responses, you still never answered if neotrad is merely choreographed or not without a giant post analyzing something else.

Taking in consideration that I mention principles as well as rules, do you have in mind some other bar?

"principles" is a meaningless rabbithole that breeds whatever the reader wants it to. You need to be clear and explicit. Vague & needlessly verbose reams of text that leave meaning up to the reader to find accomplish nothing.