D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It

[MerricB]

I really hate Leomund's Tiny Hut in 5e.

Oh my, yes!

The last time my players used it (in the jungles of Chult), I ruled that they hadn't noticed an assassin vine, which then attacked from within the hut in the middle of the night.

It's very instructive to go back to the original version of the spell, which just keeps the weather off.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is a + thread. I explicitly asked in the OP to not do exactly this.

You are correct. My apologies.

 

[overgeeked]

Wisdom (Survival) on p 178 describes hunting wild game.

Foraging includes all manner of provisions and food. So the PHB explicitly tells you that you can forage for food on that page.

Other Activities on p 183 states that the DM calls for the check.

It lists foraging as one of the activities you can do while adventuring. So the PHB explicitly tells you that you can forage for food on that page.

Both of which shows this statement to be false...

The PHB don't even tell you that you can forage for food.

 

[Minigiant]

Foraging includes all manner of provisions and food. So the PHB explicitly tells you that you can forage for food on that page.

Hunting big game is not foraging.

It lists foraging as one of the activities you can do while adventuring. So the PHB explicitly tells you that you can forage for food on that page.

Both of which shows this statement to be false...

It say you can lookout for provisions and make a check when your DM calls for it.

You can't forage. You DM can let you forage. It's not an active task in the PHB.

 

[overgeeked]

I run old school D&D and 5e, I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in this area.

So do I and the difference is night and day.

The 1e DMG has a few things like getting lost more detailed. 1e doesn't have foraging rules etc in the PHB or DMG.

The DMG doesn't need them when those rules are in the survival guides. And there's more to old-school D&D than AD&D. B/X and BECMI have those rules. 2E has those rules. AD&D has them, too. Just not in the PHB or DMG.

The main difference with 5e is the class abilities and spells that obviate survival challenges;

That's certainly a big part of it, but not the while problem.

I really hate Leomund's Tiny Hut in 5e.

Yeah. That's one of the worst offenders.

The biggest difference I've seen is that old editions had group rules for stuff like morale and evasion; I find that the biggest lack since 3e.

That's certainly a difference, but I wouldn't call it the biggest. Long rests fully resetting hit points, conditions, ability score damage, etc along with the aforementioned spells and class abilities completely obviating what little exploration rules are present in 5E. Those are the biggest differences I see.

 

[overgeeked]

Hunting big game is not foraging.

Except that it is.

It say you can lookout for provisions and make a check when your DM calls for it.

That's literally the definition of forage.

You can't forage. You DM can let you forage. It's not an active task in the PHB.

"Survival. The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards." p178

"Forage. The character can keep an eye out for ready sources of food and water, making a Wisdom (Survival) check when the DM calls for it. (The Dungeon Master's Guide has rules for foraging.)" p183

The PHB disagrees with you.

 

[Minigiant]

Except that it is.

That's literally the definition of forage.

"Survival. The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards." p178

"Forage. The character can keep an eye out for ready sources of food and water, making a Wisdom (Survival) check when the DM calls for it. (The Dungeon Master's Guide has rules for foraging.)" p183

The PHB disagrees with you.

We can argee to disagree, But to me, foraging isn't big game hunting. And if the DM calls for your check then you aren't using the skill for foraging, the DM is instead letting you.

My core point is that there aren't clear easy to find descriptions of the actions you have agency to choose in the PHB for the exploration pillar like the combat pillar in any edition of D&D.

 

[overgeeked]

We can argee to disagree, But to me, foraging isn't big game hunting.

Ah. You're trying to make a distinction between the normal level of hunting that's explicitly covered by foraging and the somehow special category of "big-game hunting." That's not a hair worth splitting as it's all covered by the same skill in 5E.

And if the DM calls for your check then you aren't using the skill for foraging, the DM is instead letting you.

That's incredibly tortured logic. Swap that with any other activity in the game and it's nonsensical.

"If your DM calls for your attack roll, then you aren't attacking, the DM is instead letting you attack."

"I (want to) forage for food." "Make a Wisdom (Survival) check." Somehow bad?

"I (want to) attack the goblin." "Make an attack roll." Somehow good?

My core point is that there aren't clear easy to find descriptions of the actions you have agency to choose in the PHB for the exploration pillar like the combat pillar in any edition of D&D.

There's a few pages of using ability scores that covers some exploration pillar stuff, and there's a few pages explicitly detailing the types of activities you can do that 5E considers to be the exploration pillar, mainly in Chapter 8: Adventuring.

The problem isn't that the rules for exploration don't exist, they do. The problem is that they're anemic, vestigial, and trivially obviated by the class abilities and spells of 5E.

 

[Minigiant]

Ah. You're trying to make a distinction between the normal level of hunting that's explicitly covered by foraging and the somehow special category of "big-game hunting." That's not a hair worth splitting as it's all covered by the same skill in 5E.

But there is a differenc.
Hunting for meet or fur. Trapping or Shooting.

The point is the actual rule and description actually is very narrow and small.

That's incredibly tortured logic. Swap that with any other activity in the game and it's nonsensical.

I'm not saying ever action is writing that way.
I said foraging and every other exploration action in that section specially is.

They are small, hidden deep in the rules, and slathered with "Mother May I"
I am saying that 5e's PHB is written as "You are in a forest. What you you want to do?"
It's written as "You are in a forest. Here are the actions options I, the DM, am allowing you to take."

You aren't choosing your exploration option. The DM is giving them to you.

 

[overgeeked]

But there is a differenc.
Hunting for meet or fur. Trapping or Shooting.

The point is the actual rule and description actually is very narrow and small.


I'm not saying ever action is writing that way.
I said foraging and every other exploration action in that section specially is.

They are small, hidden deep in the rules, and slathered with "Mother May I"
I am saying that 5e's PHB is written as "You are in a forest. What you you want to do?"
It's written as "You are in a forest. Here are the actions options I, the DM, am allowing you to take."

You aren't choosing your exploration option. The DM is giving them to you.

Yeah. We're literally never going to agree on any of this. Cheers.