M_Natas
Hero
But then we have a dangerous dungeon in the middle of an area that doesn't have (a lot) of dangerous elements. That can be problematic unless the dungeon is sealed of.from.the environment.
D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It
- Thread starter doctorbadwolf
- Start date
M_Natas
Hero
So let's go back a step.
What kind of explorations do we have?
Structurally I think there are 3, maybe 4.
- First of all dangerous Small-Area-Exploration, aka The Dungeon-Delve.You have an area small enough that, if there wouldn't be dangerous things like monsters, traps or obstacles, you could probably explore it within 1, maybe 2 days. A megadungeon may be the exception, but even the dungeon of the mad mage is small in scale compared to even a City. Game Time is ususally measured in rounds or minutes, rarley in hours and mostly never in days. The scale is measured in 5 or 10 feet increments.
That is actually the mode of play D&D 5e RAW works best with, because it is the easiest way to incorporate the recommended 6 to 8 medium (or 3 deadly) encounters into the adventuring day. I don't think that one needs fixing. Maybe on tje coming DMG it can better explained to NewbieDMs on how to do that.
- the next one would be dangerous large-area-exploration, aka Wilderness exploration. The scale of that area is usually measured in one or six miles-increment. GameTime is usually measured in 4-hour steps or even per day.
Here 5e RAW doesn't work very well, because the mechanical balance is based in the adventure day, of 6-8 encounters per day. But in this mode of play you rarley have more than 3 encounters a day, but usually not more than 1 to 2.
The RAW rules that make this challenging, like encumbrance, food and water tracking ect.pp. are the ones that are most often ignored.
RAW Solutions would be, to press 3 deadly (or 8 medium) encounters into a day - which makes progress, the actual exploration, super slow.
Homebrew/alternative fixes would be:
1. Make encumbrance and food/Water matter and the tracking of that easy (like with the proposed supply rules).
2. Use alternative resting rules that stretch the adventuring day over several days, like my Gradual Gritty Realism Rest Rules ( https://www.enworld.org/threads/lon...ty-realism-variant-rules.700415/#post-9162672 ) - but interestingly, that is my post in this forum that got ignored the most ^^. It would also fix the disparity between casters and martials, just saying ...
- than we have non-dangerous small/medium-area-exploration, aka exploring a City or village or forest. In this mode of play you don't expect to challenge the party in Combat or have their lives regularly endangerd (it can be, but it is the exception). The players here are driven by the rewards of exploration. Finding the Inn or an interesting shop in the city, finding the ruins of a house in the village or something similiar. The obstacles are more of a social nature (in a city) or skillchallenge (Navigating in the forest). Time is more measured in hours, because you don't have to make sure that every "room" is safe, like you have to do in a dungeon. The scale is usually be hundreds of feet.
This is more of a downtime mode and works in 5e RAW okay. The future DMG should give newbie DMs more help to make this one interesting, but it works RAW.
- and last the non-dangerous large-area-exploration. The same scale as the dangerous large area exploration, but without the expectation of challenging the party. There can be combat/dangerous encounters, but they are more fluff and not there to challenge the party. It is more like you go to the dungeon and nothing dangerous happens on the way.
5e can do that. It is to say, this is the default mode for 5e RAW for traveling long distances.
So for this 4 modes of play, 5e doesn't really support one: The dangerous large-area-exploration, and that is the one people are I think complaining about, when they say, that 5e doesn't do exploration well.
What kind of explorations do we have?
Structurally I think there are 3, maybe 4.
- First of all dangerous Small-Area-Exploration, aka The Dungeon-Delve.You have an area small enough that, if there wouldn't be dangerous things like monsters, traps or obstacles, you could probably explore it within 1, maybe 2 days. A megadungeon may be the exception, but even the dungeon of the mad mage is small in scale compared to even a City. Game Time is ususally measured in rounds or minutes, rarley in hours and mostly never in days. The scale is measured in 5 or 10 feet increments.
That is actually the mode of play D&D 5e RAW works best with, because it is the easiest way to incorporate the recommended 6 to 8 medium (or 3 deadly) encounters into the adventuring day. I don't think that one needs fixing. Maybe on tje coming DMG it can better explained to NewbieDMs on how to do that.
- the next one would be dangerous large-area-exploration, aka Wilderness exploration. The scale of that area is usually measured in one or six miles-increment. GameTime is usually measured in 4-hour steps or even per day.
Here 5e RAW doesn't work very well, because the mechanical balance is based in the adventure day, of 6-8 encounters per day. But in this mode of play you rarley have more than 3 encounters a day, but usually not more than 1 to 2.
The RAW rules that make this challenging, like encumbrance, food and water tracking ect.pp. are the ones that are most often ignored.
RAW Solutions would be, to press 3 deadly (or 8 medium) encounters into a day - which makes progress, the actual exploration, super slow.
Homebrew/alternative fixes would be:
1. Make encumbrance and food/Water matter and the tracking of that easy (like with the proposed supply rules).
2. Use alternative resting rules that stretch the adventuring day over several days, like my Gradual Gritty Realism Rest Rules ( https://www.enworld.org/threads/lon...ty-realism-variant-rules.700415/#post-9162672 ) - but interestingly, that is my post in this forum that got ignored the most ^^. It would also fix the disparity between casters and martials, just saying ...
- than we have non-dangerous small/medium-area-exploration, aka exploring a City or village or forest. In this mode of play you don't expect to challenge the party in Combat or have their lives regularly endangerd (it can be, but it is the exception). The players here are driven by the rewards of exploration. Finding the Inn or an interesting shop in the city, finding the ruins of a house in the village or something similiar. The obstacles are more of a social nature (in a city) or skillchallenge (Navigating in the forest). Time is more measured in hours, because you don't have to make sure that every "room" is safe, like you have to do in a dungeon. The scale is usually be hundreds of feet.
This is more of a downtime mode and works in 5e RAW okay. The future DMG should give newbie DMs more help to make this one interesting, but it works RAW.
- and last the non-dangerous large-area-exploration. The same scale as the dangerous large area exploration, but without the expectation of challenging the party. There can be combat/dangerous encounters, but they are more fluff and not there to challenge the party. It is more like you go to the dungeon and nothing dangerous happens on the way.
5e can do that. It is to say, this is the default mode for 5e RAW for traveling long distances.
So for this 4 modes of play, 5e doesn't really support one: The dangerous large-area-exploration, and that is the one people are I think complaining about, when they say, that 5e doesn't do exploration well.
TheSword
Legend
It wasn’t a comprehensive list. Just examples of exploration.
FrozenNorth
Hero
Mostly, rule tweaks that make single day non-combat encounters viable as a resource drain:
- I use the 4e rules for curses and diseases: both are on progress tracks that get worse on multiple failures. The timing of the new check also varies with the disease/curse: once per day or once per two days is common. Remove disease/curse now grants a free save that can only improve your condition (same with healer’s tools/Religion check) rather than an auto-heal;
- I imported conditions from PF2 that are harsh but not debilitating: clumsy X (-X on Dex rolls and AC), enfeebled X (-X on Strength rolls), Drained X (-X on Con rolls and hp) and Stupefied X (-X on Int, Cha, Wis rolls). Encounters sometimes impose these penalties beyond the end of the encounter (or, if you want to gamify it more, they can last for the next 2 or 3 encounters);
- Made the exhaustion track less harsh (using the new conditions) but use it more often.
- (Indirect) Many racial and class features now expend HD. Spending 3 HD after you fall down a ravine is a more serious expenditure if it means that your high elf won’t be able to expend an HD to misty step during the next combat.
- Tiny Hut is no longer a ritual, and its walls can be attacked;
- Depending on the campaign, make long rests more difficult. My new campaign is a modified Wrath of the Righteous, and the characters need to make a Religion roll to purify the land before camping. If they fail the roll, they recover half hp and a single HD from a long rest.
On the non-resource expenditure side of the ledger, no rules tweaks, just a change in how I conceive non-combat encounters:
- More that are straight-up rewards but that require difficult skill checks to access. Classic is a magical obelisk that requires an Arcana check to activate.
- More that are either straight up side quests or future adventure hooks. Make the party decide between 2 positive choices.
- Be transparent and enforce time limits. If you are sent to deliver a message to the next kingdom and take an extra week to deliver it, you probably won’t be paid the full amount or get hired back.
FrozenNorth
Hero
This was my major issue with Abomination Vaults: the dungeon was a 15-minute stroll from the town you live in.
Zero tension in the campaign. We’d go in, get in a couple of fights, then be home in time for supper to take a long rest.
CreamCloud0
Hero
oh you're right, so there is,
so while tongues does provide additional benefits above comprehend languages it's also a much cheaper spell that provide much of a similar function, is there a compelling reason for CL to be a separate lower level spell that's as accessible as it is, just add the text translation function i suggested for upcasting to tongues and remove CL
FrozenNorth
Hero
Even this one doesn’t work really well in standard D&D. A standard combat encounter uses a lot more resources and involves a lot more decision points than the standard “you failed a Perception check so the lead character suffers 2d10 hp damage” trap.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Whatever you include, there are large chunks of time in LotR and the Hobbit were weeks go by without anything happening apart from travelling. Tolkien knew very well that having an orc jump out of every bush is silly.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Sure, you can put a dungeon in the middle of the Fire Swamps, but it's not essential, and dungeons that are sealed off from the surface environment are not uncommon.
Vaalingrade
Legend
I'm playing through it right now and that's the saving grace vs it's old school bloodthirstiness in encounter design that's kept me from walking: just the simple fact that we can leave to rest and don't have to lug rations around with the interminable Bulk system, which is somehow worse than encumbrance.
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