D&D 5E Where's the Villain? and other musings. Why some published campaigns are great and some aren't (Spoiler alerts)

[Paul Farquhar]

Why is your friend saying “this game or nothing”?

They aren't. We generally just say "who is in?" The DM decides what adventure or campaign to run, it generally comes as a surprise to players.

 

[payn]

One of my experiences was the polar opposite of that. It was a Paizo AP with a player’s companion guide, so I made a character who was friends with and respected one of the NPCs described, and who was also supposed to be the primary questgiver.

The NPC provided the first quest (resolved by level 2) then essentially disappeared from the story.

APs are tricky to run. They are more like adventure kits than a page by page instruction. If a GM doesnt absorb the material like a setting, they will likely just try to run it by the numbers. If the GM isnt into it, or have an idea of what to do, it shows. Which is why they have mixed favorability from group to group in my experience.

 

[Ancalagon]

In my experience, if the DM focuses on keeping the PCs poor, this is the result. "Why should we help people who only seem to be out to rob us". T

Warhammer was guilty of this. As a result, PCs would often strip fallen foes of all equipment and pawn it off. In one game, a party wanted to infiltrate the underworld so they set up a pawn shop and stocked it with all the stuff they hadn't managed to sell yet. After 2 sessions of that, I had to re-steer the game away from what was becoming a small merchant campaign...

 

[Ancalagon]

The Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure was dire.

I never read this adventure, but as a player we did part of it - it seemed like an endless combat slog. we didn't finish.

 

[Hussar]

Some of us prefer to play with friends than rando strangers.

That’s your preference of course but it doesn’t change the fact that no one is held hostage by the whole “well it’s the only game in town” argument.

 

[Hussar]

One of my experiences was the polar opposite of that. It was a Paizo AP with a player’s companion guide, so I made a character who was friends with and respected one of the NPCs described, and who was also supposed to be the primary questgiver.

The NPC provided the first quest (resolved by level 2) then essentially disappeared from the story.

Oh absolutely. This is easily an issue on either side of the screen.

 

[Shardstone]

APs are tricky to run. They are more like adventure kits than a page by page instruction. If a GM doesnt absorb the material like a setting, they will likely just try to run it by the numbers. If the GM isnt into it, or have an idea of what to do, it shows. Which is why they have mixed favorability from group to group in my experience.

This is one of the best summations of APs on the internet IMO. People pick them up and try to run them by the book without having a passion for the ideas inside of it. This is partially due to marketing; WotC loves to pretend that their APs are easy to pick up and play and can be a great fit for most tables. If they embraced the fact these were gaming kits (and this doesn't require "making them worse to read") and talked about them with this language, people overall would likely view them more as such.

Let's cut the silly railroads (like the Path of Demons/Devils in DiA) and lets create cool encounters, kits for building interesting scenarios, and so on.

 

[Hussar]

But, on the other hand, some groups are perfectly happy with a campaign in rails. I’ve certainly seen players who are perfectly content to let the dm roll up the plot wagon and hop on board and will actively resist any effort to entice them to come up with anything on their own.

There very much is a place for linear, heavily railroaded campaigns.

 

[Starfox]

But, on the other hand, some groups are perfectly happy with a campaign in rails. I’ve certainly seen players who are perfectly content to let the dm roll up the plot wagon and hop on board and will actively resist any effort to entice them to come up with anything on their own.

I see a lot of this, its the style most popular around here. I personally often GM bought adventures. But adventure paths often does not support their own story, or at least does not advertise themselves enough, making it hard to make suitable characters. My main experience is with Paizo adventure paths prior to PF2.

As an example I actually GMed, Savage Tide sold itself as a city adventure in the City of Sasserine, then turned into a swashbuckling sea voyage/lost island exploration, and finally planar war in the Abyss. Each of these parts were great, but it was hard to build and manage player expectations. We actually had a spin-off campaign that Stayed in Sasserine.

Jade Regent is perhaps the worst bait-and-switch, it begins as a polar expedition from a land of vikings and ends as a horror anime in a Japanese court environment. Not exactly easy to make a character suitable for this, especially if the GM is stingy with information beforehand. I never tried to actually play this one.

Paizo got better at this, the later adventure paths stayed closer to their original theme.

 

[payn]

I see a lot of this, its the style most popular around here. I personally often GM bought adventures. But adventure paths often does not support their own story, or at least does not advertise themselves enough, making it hard to make suitable characters. My main experience is with Paizo adventure paths prior to PF2.

As an example I actually GMed, Savage Tide sold itself as a city adventure in the City of Sasserine, then turned into a swashbuckling sea voyage/lost island exploration, and finally planar war in the Abyss. Each of these parts were great, but it was hard to build and manage player expectations. We actually had a spin-off campaign that Stayed in Sasserine.

Jade Regent is perhaps the worst bait-and-switch, it begins as a polar expedition from a land of vikings and ends as a horror anime in a Japanese court environment. Not exactly easy to make a character suitable for this, especially if the GM is stingy with information beforehand. I never tried to actually play this one.

Paizo got better at this, the later adventure paths stayed closer to their original theme.

Yeap, Paizo learned a lot of lessons about AP drift and bait and switch and how not to do it. The Players guides got a lot better too. I cant speak for PF2 era I have only played the first book of Abomination Vaults and GM'd nothing. Though, I think there is always a few growing pains when it comes to switching editions for adventure writing.