D&D 5E Can I use action surge in the middle of another action (between attacks when attacking with extra attack)?

[ezo]

So the Crux of the debate is this:

Is an action a “container”? Is it meant to be a singular unit of game activity that is (other than for specific exceptions) indivisible? Or is divisibility an innate feature of actions?

Either. It's entirely up to the DM, because neither interpretation is RAW.

On the one hand, the rules do not state either way. However, the rules do call out specific cases of divisibility (movement, bonus actions), which could imply the action is an indivisible unit at base, and these are the exceptions that are called out

But these do not deal with actions. They deal with breaking up movement, and the timing of a bonus action. Action Surge is an additional action, whatever it is used for, not movement (Dash being a borderline case I suppose) or a bonus action.

However, I agree these could imply such a thing (and I see that side perfectly clearly) but the point is they do not RAW imply anything like it. Some people here are more arguing that it is RAW that it is implied.

 

[Maxperson]

No, those really aren't comparable and that's not where the logic leads. The rules DO say you can take an additional action on your turn, with no stated restrictions on when during your turn that action takes place.

Comparribility is irrelevant. The argument that is being put forth is that if RAW doesn't explicitly allow or deny something, it's allowed. That includes everything not specifically allowed or denied, including those ridiculous examples.

I would like to hear how you answer this question, posed earlier in the thread:

I didn't answer it because it doesn't matter. It's an attempt at a gotcha, but it doesn't work because you can't use it in the middle of another action without explicit writing in the rules saying that you can interrupt actions. I don't have to infer timing because since RAW doesn't allow you to use it during an action, and you use it on your turn, it must happen either before or after the normal action you get. That's not an inference. It's simply what is left over after not being allowed to interrupt the action.

 

[Maxperson]

Either. It's entirely up to the DM, because neither interpretation is RAW.

Correct. And since it's up to the DM to determine the rule, he's making a house rule. You've agreed with me this entire time and yet you still are arguing with me!?

But these do not deal with actions. They deal with breaking up movement, and the timing of a bonus action. Action Surge is an additional action, whatever it is used for, not movement (Dash being a borderline case I suppose) or a bonus action.

Yes it deals with breaking up movement, but it also deals with the attack action since it calls that action out specifically.

However, I agree these could imply such a thing (and I see that side perfectly clearly) but the point is they do not RAW imply anything like it. Some people here are more arguing that it is RAW that it is implied.

Nobody is arguing that. "People"(in quotes since you don't want to use my name) are only arguing that RAW does not specifically allow it to happen, which you agree with.

That's all I have been arguing this entire time. 1) RAW doesn't say either way, so RAW doesn't allow it, and 2) the DM has to make up the new rule.

Edit: You and @ECMO3 are conflating "RAW does not allow" with "RAW disallows" which are two very different things. Please stop misstating my position which I have now corrected you guys on at least three times.

 

[Maxperson]

This is the part that bothers me about this line of thinking. This is not anywhere in the rules. Why do you have to first take an action?

I'm not sure I agree with what he said, but this is what he is arguing. Since it says "additional," Action Surge is in addition to the normal/main action. If your action isn't over yet, you haven't taken an action for Action Surge to be additional to, so it has to come after.

I think that if you use it before the normal/main action that it is still in addition

 

[Irlo]

I don't have to infer timing because since RAW doesn't allow you to use it during an action, and you use it on your turn, it must happen either before or after the normal action you get. That's not an inference. It's simply what is left over after not being allowed to interrupt the action.

That ... that's an inference. Reading the text, drawing a conclusion that's not stated explicitly in the text.

 

[FrogReaver]

Comparribility is irrelevant. The argument that is being put forth is that if RAW doesn't explicitly allow or deny something, it's allowed. That includes everything not specifically allowed or denied, including those ridiculous examples.

I didn't answer it because it doesn't matter. It's an attempt at a gotcha, but it doesn't work because you can't use it in the middle of another action without explicit writing in the rules saying that you can interrupt actions. I don't have to infer timing because since RAW doesn't allow you to use it during an action, and you use it on your turn, it must happen either before or after the normal action you get. That's not an inference. It's simply what is left over after not being allowed to interrupt the action.

IMO. The argument being put forth is different than that.
1. Rules allow you to take action surge on your turn
2. No rule (except maybe reaction rules) limit when you can take an action on your turn.

So by rule you can take action surge on your turn. Why do you think you can take it after your normal action in your turn? Because the rules explicitly say you can take it on your turn. Yet no rules explicitly says you can take it after your normal action. Thus if applying your logic - wouldn’t that mean that you cannot take action surge after another action on Your turn either (without a houserule)?

 

[Maxperson]

That ... that's an inference. Reading the text, drawing a conclusion that's not stated explicitly in the text.

Even if it is, it's still not relevant. Ultimately you cannot interrupt an action without a house rule that says you can, so a house rule has to be made either way.

 

[Maxperson]

IMO. The argument being put forth is different than that.
1. Rules allow you to take action surge on your turn
2. No rule (except maybe reaction rules) limit when you can take an action on your turn.

Bonus actions, which by RAW are actions, also give you an additional action on your turn. However, bonus action specifically says that if the timing is not specified, you choose when on your turn to take that bonus action. There is no such language with the additional action provided by Action Surge.

So by rule you can take action surge on your turn. Why do you think you can take it after your normal action in your turn? Because the rules explicitly say you can take it on your turn. Yet no rules explicitly says you can take it after your normal action. Thus if applying your logic - wouldn’t that mean that you cannot take action surge after another action o. Your turn either?

I'm not arguing that it has to happen after. That was @aco175. I'm saying that RAW does not allow it to happen in the middle of an action, since it doesn't have language like Bonus Action and Movement that allow it to happen in the middle of an action. I would allow a fighter to use it before his main action, but I don't know why he'd want to do that.

 

[FrogReaver]

Bonus actions, which by RAW are actions, also give you an additional action on your turn. However, bonus action specifically says that if the timing is not specified, you choose when on your turn to take that bonus action. There is no such language with the additional action provided by Action Surge.

I'm not arguing that it has to happen after. That was @aco175. I'm saying that RAW does not allow it to happen in the middle of an action, since it doesn't have language like Bonus Action and Movement that allow it to happen in the middle of an action. I would allow a fighter to use it before his main action, but I don't know why he'd want to do that.

I’m saying the same logic that prevents it from happening in the middle also should prevent it from happening before or after.

There is no rule saying you can use it before your action.

There is no rule saying you can use it after your action.

There is no rule saying you can use it during your action.

 

[Maxperson]

I’m saying the same logic that prevents it from happening in the middle also should prevent it from happening before or after.

It doesn't. The Action Surge rule says you can use it on your turn. Specific rules allow it on the turn, but without the bonus action timing exception.