D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It

[Undrave]

Well indeed, were I to do something like this, there definitely would be "universal" spells that would appear (or at least be available) on all manner of spell lists-- Detect Magic, Protection From Good And Evil, Counterspell, etc. And at least in the case of Wizard schools, were I to do it I wouldn't just say "Transmuters get all and only transmutation schools" but curate it more so that they would get other school spells to help widen their facility. But the primary, cool, and best transmutations would probably remain just under their aegis-- like I wouldn't forsee any other Wizard school spell list getting Polymorph for instance.

But at the end of the day... for any of this to matter would require someone to actually care enough about the process to go through the effort of doing it. And even if someone did... they'd have to go into it knowing there will be plenty of people who will decry it as unbalanced or pointless or any other reason people will complain about things that get made that they don't like. So I'm certainly not going to worry about it if some folks here don't see how it could work (for themselves or just in general.)

Same here. The base Wizard should have a much smaller spell list, with the subclass giving you more choices.

But Wizard players are too entitled to accept it.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Same here. The base Wizard should have a much smaller spell list, with the subclass giving you more choices.

But Wizard players are too entitled to accept it.

My experience has been people who like spellcasters want a toolbag of options. An interesting toolbag is better than a generic one. And, as long as they have useful options it is okay if some iconic spells are not available. Fireball is great for clearing out a squad of foes, but monster summoning, confusion, or hypnotic pattern can have similar effects. The key part is not trying to rely on one school of spell to make an entire guild (sub-class).

This makes for interest in choosing a sub-class. Being a dreamweaver allows for illusions, charm, dream, shadow and color magic. But, if travel is wanted, a member of the Wending Way has levitate, fly, floating disk, and other movement and force based spells.

 

[Undrave]

My experience has been people who like spellcasters want a toolbag of options. An interesting toolbag is better than a generic one. And, as long as they have useful options it is okay if some iconic spells are not available. Fireball is great for clearing out a squad of foes, but monster summoning, confusion, or hypnotic pattern can have similar effects. The key part is not trying to rely on one school of spell to make an entire guild (sub-class).

This makes for interest in choosing a sub-class. Being a dreamweaver allows for illusions, charm, dream, shadow and color magic. But, if travel is wanted, a member of the Wending Way has levitate, fly, floating disk, and other movement and force based spells.

The problem is when you can choose Divination as a school and never pick a single Divination spell. When two Wizards of different school specialty can end up with the exact same spell list. It make it feels like your subclass has no impact.

Right now, the Wizard learns 2 spells when they gain new ones, right? Well, one of those spells should come from the basic class and the second from the subclass, forcing them to pick from their specialty. Otherwise, are you REALLY a specialist?

Then you could have a proper generalist that can gain any spell they want, but they don’t get as many bonus ones as the specialists. Or has less impactful class features.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem is when you can choose Divination as a school and never pick a single Divination spell. When two Wizards of different school specialty can end up with the exact same spell list. It make it feels like your subclass has no impact.

Right now, the Wizard learns 2 spells when they gain new ones, right? Well, one of those spells should come from the basic class and the second from the subclass, forcing them to pick from their specialty. Otherwise, are you REALLY a specialist?

Then you could have a proper generalist that can gain any spell they want, but they don’t get as many bonus ones as the specialists. Or has less impactful class features.

That only works if subclasses for the same class aren't intended to be balanced with each other.

 

[cbwjm]

The problem is when you can choose Divination as a school and never pick a single Divination spell. When two Wizards of different school specialty can end up with the exact same spell list. It make it feels like your subclass has no impact.

Right now, the Wizard learns 2 spells when they gain new ones, right? Well, one of those spells should come from the basic class and the second from the subclass, forcing them to pick from their specialty. Otherwise, are you REALLY a specialist?

Then you could have a proper generalist that can gain any spell they want, but they don’t get as many bonus ones as the specialists. Or has less impactful class features.

People do pick from their speciality though, the subclasses have effects that key off spells of their school so people tend to pick up a few spells of their speciality, though to be honest, it's never really bothered me in 5e if a necromancer only has a couple necromancy spells.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well indeed, were I to do something like this, there definitely would be "universal" spells that would appear (or at least be available) on all manner of spell lists-- Detect Magic, Protection From Good And Evil, Counterspell, etc. And at least in the case of Wizard schools, were I to do it I wouldn't just say "Transmuters get all and only transmutation schools" but curate it more so that they would get other school spells to help widen their facility. But the primary, cool, and best transmutations would probably remain just under their aegis-- like I wouldn't forsee any other Wizard school spell list getting Polymorph for instance.

But at the end of the day... for any of this to matter would require someone to actually care enough about the process to go through the effort of doing it. And even if someone did... they'd have to go into it knowing there will be plenty of people who will decry it as unbalanced or pointless or any other reason people will complain about things that get made that they don't like. So I'm certainly not going to worry about it if some folks here don't see how it could work (for themselves or just in general.)

I’d probably go the way of pairing down the existing spell lists and given subclasses more bonus spells. If fireball is iconic to wizards (it is) then I don’t care if diviners cast it, because they’re still wizards. But only the super basic and super iconic stuff should definitely stay in the base class. Everything else is up for cutting.

Same here. The base Wizard should have a much smaller spell list, with the subclass giving you more choices.

But Wizard players are too entitled to accept it.

Kinda weird to try to make it about entitlement. Wizard players play Wizard for the really broad toolkit. That’s the draw.

Issa game bruv

People do pick from their speciality though, the subclasses have effects that key off spells of their school so people tend to pick up a few spells of their speciality, though to be honest, it's never really bothered me in 5e if a necromancer only has a couple necromancy spells.

This. I’ve never seen a wizard with a school tradition not take spells from thier school. It would be pointless to play a conjurer and never conjure anything, or an abjurer and never cast an abjuration. People aren’t habitually just ignoring thier whole subclass.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I’d probably go the way of pairing down the existing spell lists and given subclasses more bonus spells. If fireball is iconic to wizards (it is) then I don’t care if diviners cast it, because they’re still wizards. But only the super basic and super iconic stuff should definitely stay in the base class. Everything else is up for cutting.

personally, i think fireball is only 'iconic' of wizard because they've had it for so long what with there being a good long point in time where they were the only arcane caster around to have fireball, as well as the aspect of people saying it is because of not wanting their toys taken away from their preferred classes, conciously or not.

it's much more a sorcerer or warlock spell IMO.

i'd give fireball to an evoker or elemental themed wizard, but i wouldn't put it in the base class if we were remaking spell lists.

it's a vaguely similar situation to the 'emergency crossbow' a wizard with a crossbow doesn't actually make a ton of sense thematically but because it was a fixture of the game for so long people started thinking it did, so when casters got easy infinite cantrips there was a not insignificant portion of people who went 'but what about the wizard's crossbow they won't need one anymore'

 

[Baron Opal II]

The problem is when you can choose Divination as a school and never pick a single Divination spell. When two Wizards of different school specialty can end up with the exact same spell list. It make it feels like your subclass has no impact.

I'm pretty sure that subclass abilities key off of the spell schools. Not 100%, but you're hamstringing yourself if you aren't. Furthermore, choose better spells that synergize with your subclass better?

But, that's why I'm talking about guild subclasses rather than school subclasses. You can make superior themed lists of spells that let players feel useful and competent while still not overshadowing other team members.

Right now, the Wizard learns 2 spells when they gain new ones, right?

Which is too many, but that's a side issue.

 

[Micah Sweet]

personally, i think fireball is only 'iconic' of wizard because they've had it for so long what with there being a good long point in time where they were the only arcane caster around to have fireball, as well as the aspect of people saying it is because of not wanting their toys taken away from their preferred classes, conciously or not.

it's much more a sorcerer or warlock spell IMO.

i'd give fireball to an evoker or elemental themed wizard, but i wouldn't put it in the base class if we were remaking spell lists.

it's a similar situation to the 'emergency crossbow' a wizard with a crossbow doesn't actually make a ton of sense thematically but because it was a fixture of the game for so long people started thinking it did.

I'd be fine with them using a staff and or dagger instead. It worked for Raistlin.

 

[Hussar]

The problem with going back to staff or dagger is that the monsters no longer have such low HP. Dealing d4 damage doesn't mean much when an ogre has 59hp instead of 17.