D&D General Ravenloft: Monsters vs Darklords

[Bedrockgames]

Every plane has physical laws. Heck, show me any reference in D&D to a physical universe at all!

This is your personal theory, which happens to fit the narrative in VRG, possibly because you like that narrative. That does NOT make it so in any way beyond your person.

I think the move to the shadow fell is a key division. I like the demiplane being part of the ethereal plane. But to each their own. It is still a dream-like and strange world. It is also a world filled with false history. However I think it doesn't work well when you spell out what that means in terms of the people residing there. It is better to leave a question mark around all this stuff I think

 

[Micah Sweet]

Don't blame me, it's always been the case in D&D (well, since 1979 anyway), goes back to the stuff on the multiverse in the 1st edition AD&D DMG.

again, show me your evidence. Don't just say it's always been true and expect me to just buy it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think the move to the shadow fell is a key division. I like the demiplane being part of the ethereal plane. But to each their own. It is still a dream-like and strange world. It is also a world filled with false history. However I think it doesn't work well when you spell out what that means in terms of the people residing there. It is better to leave a question mark around all this stuff I think

much better, yes. To spell it out and codify it the way VRG did is to remove all hope that anything the PCs do can possibly matter to anyone.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Ravenloft is a nightmare, and most of the inhabitants are characters in someone else's dream. That's why it's part of the Shadowfell, not part of the physical universe.

None of that was the case in Ravenloft until 4th edition and was basically the harbinger of crippling the setting as much as the completely wrongheaded decision of "no souls" and other Perkinsisms. All of that is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of horror.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

much better, yes. To spell it out and codify it the way VRG did is to remove all hope that anything the PCs do can possibly matter to anyone.

On a meta-gaming level I can't think of a worse decision than to give an in-game reason as to why npcs literally don't matter if you kill them. A PC in a Ravenloft campaign should be always treading the narrow path between dark and light, telling them the shopkeeper has no soul is utterly baffling.

 

[Bedrockgames]

None of that was the case in Ravenloft until 4th edition and was basically the harbinger of crippling the setting as much as the completely wrongheaded decision of "no souls" and other Perkinsisms. All of that is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of horror.

I find this idea baffling as well. It is the fastest way to make me not care about a setting. What I liked about TSR Ravenloft was there was mystery around the dark powers and around the nature of Ravenloft itself. The only character I remember not having a soul was Azrael, and that was because, if I recall, he was so spiritually corrupted by his own actions, and also for dramatic effect because the toll for taking passage was a soul.

Overall I found a lot of late 3E and beyond Ravenloft a bit too gamey.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Using as source of inspiration the rich mythology of World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness the "souls" in my games show different parts:

• Khat: the physical body. Examples of souless undeads would be the zombies and the animated skeletons.
• Ba/Sahu, the true soul. The spirit who is judged in the afterlife and sent to the outer planes.
• Ka, "spark", spirit essence, but not the true soul. The ghosts could be ka. Some no-sentient elements could create their own "ka", for example the clothing, weapons and tools used by the ghosts or other beings.
• Ab, the conscience. This is what makes the difference between a sentient construct (warforged, autognome, shardminds, glitchings, certain reborns) and a mindless robot.
• Ren, the identity. Characters with disorders of multiple personalities would multiple "ren", for example in Marvel comics Moon Knight and Legion, Xavier's son. For example the T-800 cyborg from Terminator movies would be an example of the same body but with different "ren". Transhumanist fiction (for example Altered Carbone or the RPG Eclipse Phase, could show example of bodies whose "ren" could be replaced.
• Khaibit, the "shadow", the animal part, the impulses. Souless predator undeads as the ghouls would be example of a body with a khaibit but not a true soul. Or the wraiths searching revenge. It is the Mr.Hyde, but not always it has to be a wicked force. Some times the "shadow" can be so noble like a loyal dog.

OK, my opinion is some characters in Ravenloft could lack a "true and original soul" but they aren't really souless but they are sentients and they can choose with free will thanks a "divine breath". If they couldn't choose between right and wrong then punishment for their crimes would lack sense. They couldn't be evil if they were without a true conscience as animal or robots/AIs.

 

[Incenjucar]

The Prime is barely a fraction as real as the Inner planes, and the Prime's constant failure to keep it real lead to the Outer Planes where all the stuff in your head got loose and started mucking things up for the real reality. So nyeh.

--

Shadowfell and Ravenloft both used to be demiplanes. Shadowfell at least has been given the "well rumor is it USED to be a demiplane" treatment, but it sounds like Neo-loft is more of a hard retcon into a different venn diagram.

 

[Minigiant]

None of that was the case in Ravenloft until 4th edition and was basically the harbinger of crippling the setting as much as the completely wrongheaded decision of "no souls" and other Perkinsisms. All of that is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of horror.

This is why I like my own explanation that Ravenloft is in the Shadowfell but originally a part of the Prime Material, broken off it.

The people there are real souls snatched off it and constantly reincarnated.

This is why the Dark Powers are evil and unnamed. Because the gods, celestial, and fiends do not like this and will kill the Dark Powers if they knew who they were.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Vecna hates the Dark Powers, and he wants revenge against them because he was a prisoner in the past. If somebody in the multiverse knows any way to hurt the Dark Powers, this should be Vecna, deity of the secrets and responsible of the reset of the multiverse at least once.

And Vecna could create his own demiplane of the dread but with his own "personal touch".

* T'laan, a character from Spelljammer, could be a dark lord, and the "Darkspace" his domain. His domain could be a variant of Tantalus' punishment. There is life again in his domains thanks the arrival of new settlers, but they aren't an easy prey because they are protected by some divine blessing. When a potential victim is too pure and innocent a simple prayer is enough to become invisible and undetectable, and then he only can hunt humanoids with a "tainted karma". And the most of the new settlers are or sentient constructs, or humanoid plants ( = they can't be eaten by the undeads), or they are natives from Innistrad world, with enough experience as monster-hunters.

The plot twist is this "Darkspace" has got a "mirror universe", a demiplane as an alternate timeline where the undead apocalypse was avoided, and it is the secret base of operations of a chronomancer's guild with a long story about conflicts against certain time dragons.