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D&D General Ravenloft: Monsters vs Darklords

Remathilis

Legend
This is why the Dark Powers are evil and unnamed. Because the gods, celestial, and fiends do not like this and will kill the Dark Powers if they knew who they were.
My current personal version of this is based on the Magnus Archives. A quick summary follows:

The Dark Powers are unknowable entities who are the embodiment of fear. For reasons that cannot be comprehended by mortal minds, they capture creatures in their demi-plane and explore their fears. Some (willingly or unwillingly) become avatars of these fears. These are the dark lords. While the Dark Powers are eldritch beings, some scholars have given the monikers to discuss them. They are named based on primal fears all living creatures possess: The Darkness, The Stranger, The Slaughter, The Lonely, The End, etc. It it believed some can make contact with the Dark Powers, but often work through intermediaries called Vestiges. For reasons not adequately explained, most of the known Vestiges are encased in Amber Sarcophagi across the demiplane, with the largest concentration in the Amber Temple of Barovia. A few foolish scholars have made the error that Vestiges are the Dark Powers themselves. In truth, the connection between Dark Powers, Vestiges, and Darklords is a complex one full of contradictions, lies, and maddening half-truths.

It is a partial attempt to define the Dark Powers without making them knowable. It also attempts to thread the needle between different takes on the DP. They are something old, alien, and interested only in the exploration of our fears.
 

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Remathilis

Legend
I own but have not yet read a lot of VRGtR.

Good to hear that VGtR does not repeat the soulless stuff explanation. I think it is one of the worst aspects of CoS.

Is Barovia from 5e CoS part of 5e VRGtR? Would the reasoning for people not having souls in CoS apply to the other Ravenloft domains as well?

I understand that the consistent explanation in the three 2e setting books and the 3.0 and 3.5 setting books that Ravenloft as a setting is actually an in-setting building of new domains off of Barovia does not necessarily apply in 5e with its no prior canon philosophy and reimagining of Ravenloft, but there still seems some reasons to think that 5e CoS stuff applies to other 5e VGtR Ravenloft domains if they are part of the same 5e setting.
It's complicated.

VRGR is clearly supposed to be a continuation of the CoS vision of Ravenloft, but in between the two books they opted for a number of revisions to fix some problematic issues CoS raised. Chief among them is Ezmerelda's backstory being altered (along with her name shortening to Ez), the nature of the Vistani changing, and the soulless NPCs being downplayed.

To be honest, the "soulless" argument has confused me since people began arguing it in CoS. Ravenloft has clearly always created domains out of thin air to hold their darklords in, the fact that many of the common NPCs are likewise creations of the Mists shouldn't be surprising. The grain grown is a creation of the Mists, as is the soil it grew in, but both can be used to sustain life. All being soulless does is prompt those NPCs not to question the status quo or thier lot in life. They live in a world where monsters rule over them and do not seek to overcome this. They accept it is thier lot in life and while they are appreciative for the time their suffering is lessened, they lack the initiative to do that for themselves. It's important to remember though that while soulless, they aren't automations. They laugh, cry, love, and hate. They fall in love, marry, have children, etc. They just do so in a certain dull manner that never goes beyond their purpose. Saving one of thier lives is just as important as saving a souled one, it's just the former was neverr capable of going on to do great things while the latter has that inherent potential.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
For me it's just that being soulless has mechanical consequences, or at least requires the game to add "but the Dark Powers make sure this has no impact". Some of these are interesting - a soul-eating being would be ravenous! Some of these are awkward - all corrupted soul type undead are basically fakes.
 

It's complicated.

VRGR is clearly supposed to be a continuation of the CoS vision of Ravenloft, but in between the two books they opted for a number of revisions to fix some problematic issues CoS raised. Chief among them is Ezmerelda's backstory being altered (along with her name shortening to Ez), the nature of the Vistani changing, and the soulless NPCs being downplayed.

To be honest, the "soulless" argument has confused me since people began arguing it in CoS. Ravenloft has clearly always created domains out of thin air to hold their darklords in, the fact that many of the common NPCs are likewise creations of the Mists shouldn't be surprising. The grain grown is a creation of the Mists, as is the soil it grew in, but both can be used to sustain life. All being soulless does is prompt those NPCs not to question the status quo or thier lot in life. They live in a world where monsters rule over them and do not seek to overcome this. They accept it is thier lot in life and while they are appreciative for the time their suffering is lessened, they lack the initiative to do that for themselves. It's important to remember though that while soulless, they aren't automations. They laugh, cry, love, and hate. They fall in love, marry, have children, etc. They just do so in a certain dull manner that never goes beyond their purpose. Saving one of thier lives is just as important as saving a souled one, it's just the former was neverr capable of going on to do great things while the latter has that inherent potential.
They just end up lacking a human spark though. Also while the mists create the domains the process has generally been open to question and it wasn’t assumed people were foulness. This is very important because Ravenloft is implied to be a kind of purgatory, hell or judgment ground. There is a spiritual element, very open to debate, speculation and discussion that falls apart if the people are without souls
 

My current personal version of this is based on the Magnus Archives. A quick summary follows:

The Dark Powers are unknowable entities who are the embodiment of fear. For reasons that cannot be comprehended by mortal minds, they capture creatures in their demi-plane and explore their fears. Some (willingly or unwillingly) become avatars of these fears. These are the dark lords. While the Dark Powers are eldritch beings, some scholars have given the monikers to discuss them. They are named based on primal fears all living creatures possess: The Darkness, The Stranger, The Slaughter, The Lonely, The End, etc. It it believed some can make contact with the Dark Powers, but often work through intermediaries called Vestiges. For reasons not adequately explained, most of the known Vestiges are encased in Amber Sarcophagi across the demiplane, with the largest concentration in the Amber Temple of Barovia. A few foolish scholars have made the error that Vestiges are the Dark Powers themselves. In truth, the connection between Dark Powers, Vestiges, and Darklords is a complex one full of contradictions, lies, and maddening half-truths.

It is a partial attempt to define the Dark Powers without making them knowable. It also attempts to thread the needle between different takes on the DP. They are something old, alien, and interested only in the exploration of our fears.
I like it!

I've been exploring my Shadowfell ideas lately and have turned to the Jungian concept of Shadow to recontextualive things. In the Jungian definition, to be very short with it, our Shadow are things we suppress about ourselves. This can be negative and positive, and includes things like impulses, thoughts, behaviors we don't act out, things we don't like about ourselves, things we have to suppress to do certain jobs, and so on.

The Dark Powers are things that sentient life has suppressed about itself since the dawn of senteince. The Shadowfell itself is a plane where all of this information collects and the Dark Powers have grown over time, being spliced and changed and warped by positive and negative effects across all time and space, and it turns out that, since life is Suffering, Dark Powers are a lot darker than otherwise.

Why the Dark Powers collect heinous people and lock them into Domains of Dread is not known, but there are theories from planeswalking scholars.

1.) The Dark Powers are doing what is in their nature; if they are born of suppression, they must suppress, and they suppress the most heinous things in creation (and whoever is misfortunate enough to be drawn into their Domains with them or afterward).

2.) The Dark Powers multiply by containing heinous people and steeping them in ever greater negativity. Eventually, the Dark Lord mentally adapts to their Domain and over comes it, becoming something capable of not just withstanding but manipulating the vast amount of negative information their Domain both absorbs and produces.

3.) The Dark Powers do this at the Raven Queen's behest, who mastered them when she fell into the Shadow and rose within it as her new godly self. The Dark Powers create Domains of Dread because within tragedies is contained the original memories of the Raven Queen; to understand herself, she must understand Shadow; to understand Shadow, she must understand Tragedy; thus she perpetuates the Domains of Dread (probably until the end of time).

These three theories are competing, but could also work in unison, and its really made the Shadowfell a more interesting place for me specifically to run games in. Its also let me greatly reimagine the aesthetics of the Shadowfell (and in truth, the Plane of Shadow is really more like the Plane of Heresy at this point; maybe I'll rename it and try and publish it some day...)
 

And we should thanks nobody adding elements about conspirancy theories...

In CoS the vampires need blood by people with a soul.

Ravenloft is not 100& gothic horror. Some times the PCs can save innocent lifes and avoid horrible tragedies. And some times even there is a little time for the humor. Ravenloft is not only one recipe, but a complete menu, with options for different preferences.

And some isekai manga are about characters who are reincarnated into adult bodies by people who had just died. Maybe the barker is souless, until they day when he receives the soul of the butcher who was killed by a werewolf the last night.

The nature of the Dark Powers is intentionally ambiguous, and the fandom would rather like this. I would rather to add some touchs of hope, and stories about the conflict between fear and faith, because you need enough hope and faith in yourself to be enough brave and dare to risk your life to save innocents.

And Ravenloft is not only the "monster of the week" as if it was "Buffy the vampire slayer" or "Charmed". There is space of palace intrigues, altough I miss the fights between neighbour realms.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
To me, every campaign in Ravenloft I can think of wanting to run…I’d rather run without Ravenloft’s core assumptions.

By which I mean, the Dark Powers, and the inevitable return of primary evil of the campaign. If we do CoS, and Strahd gets got, he stays dead, and Barovia slowly returns to the world it was cut off from.

All that said, if I’m running a campaign based on a particular interesting monster that I’ll want to give a name and backstory, I’m running that as a Darklord.
 

Remathilis

Legend
For me it's just that being soulless has mechanical consequences, or at least requires the game to add "but the Dark Powers make sure this has no impact". Some of these are interesting - a soul-eating being would be ravenous! Some of these are awkward - all corrupted soul type undead are basically fakes.
It does raise issues with something like Mordent, where most/all of the dead end up as incorporeal undead.
 

It's complicated.

VRGR is clearly supposed to be a continuation of the CoS vision of Ravenloft, but in between the two books they opted for a number of revisions to fix some problematic issues CoS raised. Chief among them is Ezmerelda's backstory being altered (along with her name shortening to Ez), the nature of the Vistani changing, and the soulless NPCs being downplayed.

To be honest, the "soulless" argument has confused me since people began arguing it in CoS.
Some people seem to find it triggering. I don't really understand why either, but it was a good enough reason to drop it by the time VGR came out.

IMO it was hardly at the level of crass stupidity of giving vistani racist stereotyping, when D&D had been consciously steering clear of that for so long.
 

For me it's just that being soulless has mechanical consequences, or at least requires the game to add "but the Dark Powers make sure this has no impact". Some of these are interesting - a soul-eating being would be ravenous! Some of these are awkward - all corrupted soul type undead are basically fakes.
5e doesn't really define what it means by a "soul" in game terms though. What people understand the word to mean is going to depend on their religious background. Which is really a good reason for D&D to avoid talking about souls all together.

But even CoS didn't say all the people are soulless. Even if it's 90% (as stated in CoS), you would still have several hundred people who do have souls who could go on to become ghosts. CoS Barovia appears to have a population of around 20,000, so that's 2,000 souls.

But it's pretty clear that a lot of Ravenloft's undead have to have been created by the plane itself, and therefore have never actually been alive.
 
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