D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Corinnguard]

I think that is where the old -2 came in to create some differences. An elf and gnome wizard might have the same int, but con and strength were going to be meaningfully different or the same with meaningful tradeoffs elsewhere on top of the various ribbons that actually distinguished the characters in play or build. By getting rid of the -2, 5e made different PCs virtually indistinguishable from each other the vast majority of a campaign.

Just as the static ASIs in 5e had the unfortunate side effect of type-casting a race toward favoring a particular character class, the static ability score penalty had it's own set of issues. Type-casting was one of them. If you belonged to a race that had a -2 CHA, would you play a class that relied on CHA such as the Paladin or the Sorcerer?

 

[mellored]

Quite frankly again having subspecies that are just +1 and species +2 to a Ability score is outdated design.

If Halflings are agile, make them agile. Don't just just +2 DEX because history since it doesn't reflect in game.

That's the inconsistency of sticking to tradition but changing mechanics.. You cant have normal people PCs and make +2 to Ability significant.

I would be fine getting rid of ability scores. Obviously not happening now.

But you can just give fighters +5 to hit and +5 to Athletics, and +3 to 3 other skills.

Race and Background gives you +2 to any skills (max +5).

Skips a bunch of unnecessary calculations and tracking and lets you do stuff like having arcane, stealth, and diplomacy.

 

[Corinnguard]

What this debate always comes down to is people who are afraid other people will play their characters "wrong" and want to rules to force them to play them "right". Strong halflings are wrong. Bookish orc wizards are wrong. WotC needs to tell those players that a halflings must be weak and an orc must be swinging a sword all the time.

That's really what this debate is about; somewhere out there is a player engaging in badwrongfun and we need the rules to put an end to this RIGHT NOW!

Some people have control issues. If they aren't having fun, they don't want you having fun either.

 

[Remathilis]

Just as the static ASIs in 5e had the unfortunate side effect of type-casting a race toward favoring a particular character class, the static ability score penalty had it's own set of issues. Type-casting was one of them. If you belonged to a race that had a -2 CHA, would you play a class that relied on CHA such as the Paladin or the Sorcerer?

To me, it's the difference between a hard ban and a soft ban. There is very little difference between saying "Orcs have a -2 Int" and "orcs can't be wizards" since even a moderately competent player can see they pale against a race with no penalty and are obliterated by one with a bonus.

I think it again goes back to a certain lack of creativity that everyone feels races should only be played certain ways. All elves are archers or wizards. All orcs are melee brutes. All halflings are nimble thieves, etc. Anyone who isn't is engaging in badwrongfun and the rules should force them back into their respective roles by either making them inefficient or outright banning it. Race as class is the ultimate expression of this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Put that down in the "rules every DM forgot, ever" list.

I remembered it. I'm not responsible for other players, especially if they aren't using the rules.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't see anything that would prevent you from building a representative sample, not a heroic character.

If you want to build a character to spec, and I want to play a character that colors way outside the lines, the only way for us to play together is to have a less restrictive character creation ruleset.

This is why there is more than one RPG. I just sometimes wish that the easiest one for which to find players didn't change from what I like to what you like. Selfish, I'm sure, but I'm not required to sublimated my preferences because some people have different ones.

 

[Corinnguard]

I think it again goes back to a certain lack of creativity that everyone feels races should only be played certain ways. All elves are archers or wizards. All orcs are melee brutes. All halflings are nimble thieves, etc. Anyone who isn't is engaging in badwrongfun and the rules should force them back into their respective roles by either making them inefficient or outright banning it. Race as class is the ultimate expression of this.

Whereas humans in AD&D could be anything they wanted to be. It's those other races that had to be played in certain ways.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

If ability scores are not significant and if being agile cannot be represented by high dexterity, then why the hell we have ability scores? If they cannot mechanically represent the fiction just get rid of them.

For the heartbreaker I've been working on, I've been thinking about just getting rid of the ability scores. I'd roll the math into proficiency bonus, and everything else ability scores do would go into a background based skill system.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think that is where the old -2 came in to create some differences. An elf and gnome wizard might have the same int, but con and strength were going to be meaningfully different or the same with meaningful tradeoffs elsewhere on top of the various ribbons that actually distinguished the characters in play or build. By getting rid of the -2, 5e made different PCs virtually indistinguishable from each other the vast majority of a campaign.

Sometimes I wonder if that wasn't the intent. Some people want PCs to be different from each other, but only in light, mostly aesthetic ways. And the game has been playing to that philosophy more and more, leveling out mechanical variety in a hundred different ways such that aesthetics and personal characterization are where PCs get to be different.

I'm not saying WotC 5e is all the way there, but I see a trend.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Whereas humans in AD&D could be anything they wanted to be. It's those other races that had to be played in certain ways.

To me, that's a big reason to have nonhuman heritages in the first place. They have different strengths and weaknesses than humans do. Break all that down and I question why you bother with elves at all? They look cool is not a good enough reason for me in a fantasy world.