D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Crimson Longinus]

Meanwhile, when I play, my halfling PC can be extraordinarily strong. There have always been individuals at the extreme ends of bell curves, and a world in which (for instance) you can’t play a male witch, is less realistic rather than more realistic than reality.

Right. But why cannot I play an equally exceptional goliath that is much stronger than other goliaths and thus has str of 26?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's a consequence of D&D's stakes.
Normal people don't survive dungeons and stick to their day jobs.
After burying some many normal people, only the weirdos with crazy backgrounds and histories are representative of PCs over level 2.
Even in 1e, the PCs with high stats leveled faster.


Or do you think a level 5 Fighter with 13 STR, 12 CON, and 12 DEX is realistic?

Played intelligently with a little luck (and in a game where stat bonuses aren't so heavily emphasized as 5e), yes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Disagree. Most NPC halflings aren’t Str-based fighters. When I DM, I can fill the world with NPCs that reflect my conception of how a race would implement the class.

Meanwhile, when I play, my halfling PC can be extraordinarily strong. There have always been individuals at the extreme ends of bell curves, and a world in which (for instance) you can’t play a male witch, is less realistic rather than more realistic than reality.

Meanwhile, it is just “hella weird” that dwarves are more willing to listen to a drow (racial bonus +2 Cha) than another dwarf (racial penalty -2 Cha).

This was accounted for in some of the TSR editions, with the Charisma penalties not applying to other dwarves.

 

[TwoSix]

It is not about right or wrong, it is about what the purpose of the rules is. If the credo is that everyone must be able to anything, and rules should not set limits, then why the hell are are we playing a game where species and classes are predefined rule packages? The literal point of those is to set limits.

If we have splats, they should define and limit things. If we don't want that, then don't have splats, have freeform character building instead. Simple as that.

It's not that the rules shouldn't set limits. Limits are fun precisely because they exist to break.

It's why I prefer flexible class systems over pure point-buy. It's not nearly as much fun to build a melee wizard or a blasty cleric if the normal tropes weren't there to subvert.

The rules can define and restrict the setting, but they shouldn't restrict me, the player. I'm here to play a protagonist, not representative sample #34782 of the dwarven race.

 

[Minigiant]

If ability scores are not significant and if being agile cannot be represented by high dexterity, then why the hell we have ability scores? If they cannot mechanically represent the fiction just get rid of them.

Ability scores is for math.

And Halfling should have a feature that alters Dex like Goliath does strength.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In the first season episode The Last Outpost from Star Trek: The Next Generation, Commander Riker made the mistake of underestimating his Ferengi opponent by assuming that Strength equated with size. He believed that his opponent couldn't break free from his grasp simply because he was half of Riker's size. We all know what happened next.

Sometimes big surprises come in small packages.

Except in 5e, where it's all the time.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Quite frankly again having subspecies that are just +1 and species +2 to a Ability score is outdated design.

If Halflings are agile, make them agile. Don't just just +2 DEX because history since it doesn't reflect in game.

That's the inconsistency of sticking to tradition but changing mechanics.. You cant have normal people PCs and make +2 to Ability significant.

This is why I preferred TSR's system, where there were stat minimums to qualify as a race, but no ASIs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's not that the rules shouldn't set limits. Limits are fun precisely because they exist to break.

It's why I prefer flexible class systems over pure point-buy. It's not nearly as much fun to build a melee wizard or a blasty cleric if the normal tropes weren't there to subvert.

The rules can define and restrict the setting, but they shouldn't restrict me, the player. I'm here to play a protagonist, not representative sample #34782 of the dwarven race.

I am not here to play a protagonist, because that is a narrative role, and the purpose of my game is to explore an imaginary world, not to build a story.

 

[Remathilis]

And halflings can bump their strength with levelling ASIs. But I think it is clear that wizards would struggle to be healers and it comes far easier to other classes, bickering about specifics doesn't change the overall picture. (And halflings were never bad fighters, they just needed to be dex-based fighters. They had to adopt the flavour that fit their species.)

It is not about right or wrong, it is about what the purpose of the rules is. If the credo is that everyone must be able to anything, and rules should not set limits, then why the hell are are we playing a game where species and classes are predefined rule packages? The literal point of those is to set limits.

If we have splats, they should define and limit things. If we don't want that, then don't have splats, have freeform character building instead. Simple as that.

The issue is that with ability scores being absolutely important to class function, you create a choice between mechanical efficiency and role play. You either picked a race that complements your class score requirements or you intentionally lowered your effectiveness to fulfill an aesthetic or RP choice. Now we can argue if a +1 is a major difference in the math, but it is perceived to be, enough that many players automatically gravitated to races that had the proper ASI at creation and rarely gave others the time of day. Simply put, it was perceived as bad to be a hill dwarf rogue, high elf bard, or tiefling ranger. And that ultimately felt like players who wanted to play a non efficient combo were penalized for it, even if the flavor of the combo (like dwarf artificer or elf bard) was on point.

 

[Remathilis]

This was accounted for in some of the TSR editions, with the Charisma penalties not applying to other dwarves.

Put that down in the "rules every DM forgot, ever" list.