D&D General Explain Bounded Accuracy to Me (As if I Was Five)

[Lanefan]

Just out of curiosity, are there any official sources on the "expected magic item curve"?

Official? I don't know of any...and there might be some good reasons for that, see below.

When trying to grok TSR eta D&D, people tend to say that characters are supposed to progress via magic items (because class features are more sparse), but they never mention what kind of items or in which order they're supposed to get. I know that "game balance" is less of a concern with Old-School D&D, but surely there were some guidelines, and the "+1 bonus every 4-5 levels" sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Well, part of it is that the magic items in treasure hoards are sometimes determined randomly; meaning there's no way of knowing what a party might find. Further, 1e expects a higher turnover of characters thus there's no way of knowing in advance who is going to find what treasure (example: as DM writing an adventure ahead of time, you put an Illusionist's spell book in a hoard in hopes of boosting the currently-weak PC Illusionist; but by the time the party get there that Illusionist is long since dead and the player is now running a Cleric, and so the spellbook just gets sold off).

The nearest thing there is to a "guide" might be to look at some published adventure modules for various levels and see what magic is given out there. Keep in mind, however, that the underlying expectation is that the PCs won't necessarily find all of it (this is another huge variable!); long-time experience tells me they find about 3/4 of it on average, but I've seen parties find everything possible in an adventure and I've also seen parties miss* nearly everything. But even only finding 3/4 would put the PCs well above the guidelines posted by others upthread: IME by about 7th level they're rolling in magic unless they've got unlucky with AoE saving throws causing their items to melt down.

Which is yet another huge variable: items in 1e can be destroyed. If you fail a save vs (usually AoE) damage such as a fireball or lightning bolt etc., everything you carry - including your magic - then also has to save or be destroyed.

Given all those massive variables, plus some other minor ones, the absence of any sort of guidelines is very understandable.

* - or unintentionally destroy it, which has also happened many a time.

 

[tetrasodium]

Just out of curiosity, are there any official sources on the "expected magic item curve"? When trying to grok TSR eta D&D, people tend to say that characters are supposed to progress via magic items (because class features are more sparse), but they never mention what kind of items or in which order they're supposed to get. I know that "game balance" is less of a concern with Old-School D&D, but surely there were some guidelines, and the "+1 bonus every 4-5 levels" sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Yes and no. There is some great discussion in this reddit thread on it, but IMO there was a printed set of safety rails to help with learning them. The +4 attrib spells (bull strength/cats grace/owls wisdom/etc) were all 2nd level spells for both full casters (sorc/wiz cleric/druid/etc) and half casters (ie ranger/paladin). The full casters would unlock their first second level slot at level 3 & get their third 2nd level slot at level six, somewhere in that range it was common for players to get a +2 item for their prime attrib. Half casters by contrast got their first second level slot at level 10 when those X per caster level second level slots were really starting to make bull strength/casts grace/etc a hard sell, somewhere around here(give or take) it was common for players to pickup a +4 item for their base stat allowing half casters to drop an important +4 on secondary/tertiary attribs like a owls wis on the tank before the party faces something with a nasty wis save ability.

There was also the secondary guiderail of the not really named at the time iterative attack penalty that PF2 calls a multiattack penalty. Specifically attacks were made at +Full BaB/-5/-10/-15. The first one was very likely to succeed with the later ones less & less likely but still fairly reliable against mooks & such. Eventually monster ACs would scale to where the GM & players were likely to notice that mooks weren't very mooky & non-mooks were a bit too much missing; The GM would likely start dropping them or allowing players to buy/craft them by that point if they were previously uncertain.

Plus there was the wealth by level guidelines & I'd be shocked if the old dragon mag stuff didn't mention +attrib gear & +N magic items in the various letter to the editor/(ask [someone's name?]) section casually here & there if there wasn't some actual guidance at some point in one.

One of the major differences between then & now was that the presence of "Behind the Curtain" sections in the DMG & MM (probably other books too I bet) did a good job of talking about RAI and breaking down crunch for the reader to understand. That made it a lot easier for different GM's to be on the same page mentally when having a discussion.

Published adventures probably helped a lot too, +attrib gear was rather common for adventures of certain levels back then

edit: thinking about it there was a +2 attrib spell too I think, I don't remeber what they were but think it had some influence too

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

4e monster design in general was a hot mess IMO; in that a monster's stats changed based on what was fighting it rather than being locked in and thus defining what made the monster tick in relation to ALL the rest of the fiction including the PCs.

Nah the narrative already shifts based on the party. I mean your argument is that monster stats change based on what they are fighting, but that already happens. It doesn't need an in-fiction explanation, just like running into a random NPC does not require justification for why they are level 11 rather than level 4, for example.

Why not? Does nothing in your game occasionally bestow a level to a lucky PC? Or drain one, if unlucky? Do replacements for dead PCs always come in at the same level as the character they're replacing?

5e is way better able to handle mixed-level parties than either 3e or 4e, and it's the flatter power curve that makes this possible.

It has only happened once in my 20 years of adventuring, and in that case it happened as a consequence of random chance in the very last session of the campaign so it had no impact.

I'm willing to bet that mixed level parties are a thing of the past.

Any design work intended to support mixed level parties is misplaced design work in my opinion.

If 5e doesn't have rules for henches (though I thought it did, somewhere) that would count as a big-time miss.

And even then, you wouldn't decide the henches' to-hit bonus arbitrarily anyway, right? If the hench is a 4th level Fighter then it attacks etc. just like a PC of the same class and level would - or at least one would think so.

I would decide them arbitrarily, yes.

There's absolutely no reason, in my opinion, why a hireling should even have class levels. Class levels are a player abstraction.

Which is why a wise DM doesn't throw golems at the PCs until either a) the PCs have some gear that can touch the golems or b) the players have learned to have their PCs run away sometimes.

It was a counter against the argument that old-school D&D had a softer curve.

 

[ezo]

How did it turn out? Im interested.

Completely fine. Once players see the chart and realize they will only be a level or two back, it isn't a big deal. Since they are lower level, they will catch up more or less eventually.

However, if you try something like this, just remember to discuss it at session 0 so everyone's on board.

 

[Shardstone]

Completely fine. Once players see the chart and realize they will only be a level or two back, it isn't a big deal. Since they are lower level, they will catch up more or less eventually.

However, if you try something like this, just remember to discuss it at session 0 so everyone's on board.

I mean like, give me some stories of how it turned out! What kind of standout moments did it create?

 

[ezo]

I mean like, give me some stories of how it turned out! What kind of standout moments did it create?

Sorry, but I am a bit confused. What sort of standout moments are you thinking of?

1. The PC died. Player decided on a new PC instead of trying to find some way to raise their dead PC.
2. DM determines average party XP, halves it, then informs the player how much XP the new PC has.
3. Player makes up new PC and DM integrates the new PC into the party.

That is pretty much how it works each time it's happened. Now, the player has two options: 1) decide they would like to keep their current PC so the party tries to find some way to restore the fallen PC to life, or 2) decide they would rather make up a new PC, so goes through the process above.

 

[Shardstone]

Sorry, but I am a bit confused. What sort of standout moments are you thinking of?

1. The PC died. Player decided on a new PC instead of trying to find some way to raise their dead PC.
2. DM determines average party XP, halves it, then informs the player how much XP the new PC has.
3. Player makes up new PC and DM integrates the new PC into the party.

That is pretty much how it works each time it's happened. Now, the player has two options: 1) decide they would like to keep their current PC so the party tries to find some way to restore the fallen PC to life, or 2) decide they would rather make up a new PC, so goes through the process above.

I just like hearing stories, man.

 

[Rabulias]

Just out of curiosity, are there any official sources on the "expected magic item curve"?

The nearest thing there is to a "guide" might be to look at some published adventure modules for various levels and see what magic is given out there.

Many AD&D first edition adventures included example or tournament characters. They can be a good reference to infer from. Two examples from G1-2-3: Against the Giants:

Level 12 cleric has a mace +2, plate mail +2, shield +2, 2 potions of invisibility, potion of diminution, 2 potions of extra-healing

Level 14 fighter has a spear +3, battle axe +1, plate mall +2, shield +5, 4 potions of invisibility, potion of healing, 2 potions of extra-healing

 

[tetrasodium]

I just like hearing stories, man.

I've done the same. There's nothing to tell.. you might as well be asking for a riveting retelling of "roll initiative". Times I did it differ from @ezo in that I check the sheet with everyone's exp and say "ok your new PC has =spreadsheetcell/2 experience. Send me the sheet/PDF when you are done with it". It would be nice to make the party outfit new PCs with unsold magic items like in older editions where a glut of unused items would get players thinking and bring up $newpc as an adventure is wrapping up, but 5e can't really handle enough extra magic items for that to work. Now I've learned that I can't even work with players on new magic items after getting the sheet and need to wait till the PC is in play before giving them a sheet because too many get outraged when I refuse to allow them to rebuild a whole new PC around the custom magic item made to be balanced for the original new PC they sent me.

 

[ezo]

I just like hearing stories, man.

LOL, no problem, I do as well. The absolute best PC deaths are with other players have cried when another player's PC died...