D&D General Is WotC's 5E D&D easy? Trust me this isn't what you think... maybe

[Vaalingrade]

Exactly. There’s no point rolling for like 90% of things in 5E. The odds are already stacked so wildly in the PCs favor, and the system gives them dozens of ways to stack the odds even more in their favor, the “game” becomes pointless.

Maybe the point of the game is not longer 'challenge' as you define it?

 

[Stormonu]

A lot of people like to say it's either "too easy" or "Super lethal". Can't there be a middle ground?

People tend to remember the extremes. I'd be willing to bet most encounters fall in the middle - they take some effort, but are completely winnable. Thing is, they're easily forgotten in the face of nail-biters and complete thrashings.

 

[Stormonu]

I am prepping an upcoming adventure and the module lists an evoker as the bad guy. The old evoker had 12HD, 50something HP, and a list of spells making it a CR9. The new Mords evoker has 22HD, 125ish HP, a 50% recharge fireball, a cantrip that shoots (3) 4d10 force bolts and some extra spells, but still a CR9. I'm interested in seeing if the new one is something scary and makes the fight more than a walk for 8th level PCs.

Is the monster math in the new books coming out going to look this scary or still be flat to the power of the PCs.

Four 8th level PCs against a single CR 9 opponent? That isn't going to be scary, it'll be a murder (of the NPC - and is well expected). Likely, he'll get some damage on the PCs, but I'd be surprised if it drops even a single PC.

 

[overgeeked]

Four 8th level PCs against a single CR 9 opponent? That isn't going to be scary, it'll be a murder (of the NPC - and is well expected). Likely, he'll get some damage on the PCs, but I'd be surprised if it drops even a single PC.

And that’s one of the key problems with 5E encounter design. The assumption of four PCs vs one monster. Action economy wins fights. The monsters are almost always at a huge disadvantage. Except for some named NPCs, you get 1-3 attacks from a monster vs at least four from the PCs. Giving monsters the same action economy as the PCs would go a long way to make things more challenging.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Any adventure can end up easy or hard depending on how a party is put together.

A standard fighter / rogue / cleric / wizard party will have a more difficult time than a paladin / life cleric / moon druid / divine soul sorcerer party because it only has a single PC that heals that has to try and keep the others on their feet. Whereas the latter group has four characters that ALL can heal, so the odds of things spiraling out of control because the healer goes down is minimized, and the extra HP that the moon druid contributes in wildshape makes knocking the party down more difficult as well. Likewise... a group that has a Bear Totem barbarian has an easier time of it than one that doesn't because that barbarian has essentially twice the HP now and still can kill things just as easily, or one with a Twilight Cleric bumps everyone's temp HP as well. And this doesn't even take into account adding a fifth PC into the group, let alone a 6th or 7th.

So it makes total sense that an adventure path book that was written with a default baseline group of PCs that might be all the pre-gens from the Starter Sets or the Basic Rules can not keep up with the players who have the PHB, Xanathar's & Tasha's and mix and match abilities and classes and subclasses to create uber-powered combinations of characters.

This is why we have DM's Guild-- so that other people can create massively more dangerous adventures for those people who have parties of overpowered PCs.

 

[Quickleaf]

The official modules DO NOT always follow the CR/Encounter guidelines and will often throw PCs into situations that aren't easy to overcome - things like the initial goblin ambush in Lost Mines, the solo combat in Greenest in Tyranny and so on. And when these show up, the designers catch hell for it.

I don't know what me and my gaming group(s) are doing differently, but we've never felt things were super-easy and its very easy for things to go sideways and someone's character dies. We usually have at least two character death per campaign, and I've seen a couple TPK's or near enough TPK's to always have me keep my guard up in the game.

Actually, IIRC both those examples are when the party is 1st level, maybe 2nd level? I think (but obviously haven't played ALL the WotC 5 adventures) your statement that their modules "will often throw PCs into situations that aren't easy to overcome" might be specific to the very lowest levels of play, and may not hold true at other levels.

 

[Art Waring]

and you don't roll unless there is a consequence

This is a pretty common feature in many OSR-styled games. Its included in some form in games from Cairn to Electric Bastionland to Shadowdark.

Not really a full-blown OSR fan since I like crunchy systems too, but I do like their pragmatic approach to running the game. No need to roll unless the stakes call for it, no need to roll for small potatoes.

Players should be assumed to be at least competent in their chosen field of expertise, and rolling for everything is not just a waste of time, but a waste of player potential, as they could be thinking of creative solutions to problems instead of staring at their character sheet looking for some answer in the text.

 

[tetrasodium]

This is a pretty common feature in many OSR-styled games. Its included in some form in games from Cairn to Electric Bastionland to Shadowdark.

Not really a full-blown OSR fan since I like crunchy systems too, but I do like their pragmatic approach to running the game. No need to roll unless the stakes call for it, no need to roll for small potatoes.

Players should be assumed to be at least competent in their chosen field of expertise, and rolling for everything is not just a waste of time, but a waste of player potential, as they could be thinking of creative solutions to problems instead of staring at their character sheet looking for some answer in the text.

The trouble with when the risk & difficulty drop past a certain point is that roll or not you have a situation where the consequences can't matter.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That doesn't mean that they should be designed around a group of new players who rolled low on stats and put them in a brain meltingly zany arrangement while building deliberately unoptimized PCs. At a certain point they won't be new might roll better & might put a little more thought into not sabotaging their PC for the lulz

This. As near as I can tell the monster manual was tested against a party of 5 identical 8 str/dex fighters dual wielding turkey drumsticks and wearing padded armor. The math looks incredibly off compared to the DMG monster CR suggestions. The creature design in Flee Mortals seems closer to the mark for "combat as sport" play.

 

[tetrasodium]

This. As near as I can tell the monster manual was tested against a party of 5 identical 8 str/dex fighters dual wielding turkey drumsticks and wearing padded armor. The math looks incredibly off compared to the DMG monster CR suggestions. The creature design in Flee Mortals seems closer to the mark for "combat as sport" play.

Having tried those tables in the DMG I can assure you that they aren't enough of an improvement to feel any different.