D&D General Is WotC's 5E D&D easy? Trust me this isn't what you think... maybe

[ezo]

I suppose that will come down to the types of players one has. In my particular case, players want to engage with the stories that the campaign presents and not just "get past them" without incident.

Very true. I've played in groups on both sides: more role-play vs. more action.

Personally, much of the stuff you mention is only "useful" when it leads to adventure hooks typically: the bolded sections:

we're still going to roleplay the approach to the building, the negotiation with the owners, perhaps get food and drink in the tavern and any events /rumors that might come out of that, going for the rest, perhaps be woken up in the middle of the night for some event, and then get up the next morning.

But I recognize, for myself and some others I play with, it is because we value the "adventure" more than the individual characters.

So why anyone would want to just skip all that potential story by saying "Okay, your feature says you get room and board, so you leave the road, find an inn, go to sleep, wake up, and are back here next morning" all the time is beyond me

I've never played in a group that did it "all the time" because often those intereaction are what hooks the PCs into a potential adventure. In general, you skip over it when it probably won't provide the hook you're looking for.

In a way it is a lot like random encounters while traveling. Some groups do them constantly, others skip them.

The list I provided above trivialize things as follows:

• Criminal Contact (Criminal) - these PCs have the convience of providing a "contact" when otherwise the PCs might have to role-play the social part of the game finding one, meeting them, and such.
• Rustic Hospitality (Folk Hero) - as in your example, food and lodging. You can role-play it out, but until the people you are staying with or their community provides a hook, not much comes from. Ocassionally it is fun to play out, sure, but otherwise...
• Position of Privilege (Noble) - same as folk hero, but also as leverage to get non-nobles to do your bidding. An interesting side-effect I enjoy is when the rulers in a region are in threat of rebellion, so PCs playing the card might find themselves in trouble.
• Ship's Passage (Sailor) - removes the need to role-play getting that ship to that port you needed. Again, yes you can play it out anyway, but unless you believe that'll provide interests/ hooks, a bit of a time sink.
• City Streets (Urchin) - this one isn't too bad, but in time crunch situations in towns can be a blessing indeed. Luckily, being able to move twice as quickly doesn't mean you also know where you need to go, although I have often seen this feature play out that way.
• Wanderer (Outlander) - my bane for exploration challenges! you can always find your way back, easy food/water, etc. I know with magic much of this is moot anyway, but still.

At any rate, I doubt most groups gloss over things all the time, even if some background features offer significant edges or automatic successes, but such is the nature of 5E. Personally, I've just house-ruled most such things offer advantages on related checks, not making them automatic.

 

[Hussar]

I really do wish people would back up these stories and anecdotes with actual hard numbers. As in, track the numbers in your games for the next 20-30 rounds of combat and then come back and show how your game is either easy or difficult. Because, honestly? I'm not having the problems that people like @tetrasodium and @overgeeked and others are having.

I have no problems challenging or being challenged in 5e. I don't. I don't know what to tell you, but, I routinely challenge the groups I run or play with. In the last session I played as a player, we are in the Avernus module, having just entered Elturel. We wound up succeeding in finding safety, but, it was nail biting right to the end, with half the group on their second or third death save at some points. True, no one died, but, it was definitely down to the wire.

My own Phandelver game is taking a little side trek with the following adventure: - A Tough Tavern to Swallow, and will be a very near thing unless I miss my guess.

I keep track of the stats for my games. I dunno what to tell you, other than I simply don't have the experiences you do. Challenging the groups isn't that hard. Now, in the game that I play (not DM), one of the players is totally new to D&D. It's been a real experience watching someone learn the game. It takes a LONG time to learn stuff. He's still trying to wrap his head around things, and he's been playing for quite a while now.

 

[ezo]

A Tough Tavern to Swallow, and will be a very near thing unless I miss my guess.

Looks interesting. Too bad the free pdf link doesn't work anymore.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, the real problem is the WotC-published adventures, which mostly suck if run as-written. They’re good sources of ideas, and can serve as a solid basis to build on if you want to do the work to improve them, but they don’t really work as playable-out-of-the-box experiences, except Lost Mine of Phandelver, which they don’t even sell in its original form anymore (and the Shattered Obelisk version has a lot of issues).

Yup. This is my experience, and the reason why I've only ever used the published adventures for inspiration and material I can mine for my homebrew.

 

[tetrasodium]

I really do wish people would back up these stories and anecdotes with actual hard numbers. As in, track the numbers in your games for the next 20-30 rounds of combat and then come back and show how your game is either easy or difficult. Because, honestly? I'm not having the problems that people like @tetrasodium and @overgeeked and others are having.

I have no problems challenging or being challenged in 5e. I don't. I don't know what to tell you, but, I routinely challenge the groups I run or play with. In the last session I played as a player, we are in the Avernus module, having just entered Elturel. We wound up succeeding in finding safety, but, it was nail biting right to the end, with half the group on their second or third death save at some points. True, no one died, but, it was definitely down to the wire.

My own Phandelver game is taking a little side trek with the following adventure: - A Tough Tavern to Swallow, and will be a very near thing unless I miss my guess.

I keep track of the stats for my games. I dunno what to tell you, other than I simply don't have the experiences you do. Challenging the groups isn't that hard. Now, in the game that I play (not DM), one of the players is totally new to D&D. It's been a real experience watching someone learn the game. It takes a LONG time to learn stuff. He's still trying to wrap his head around things, and he's been playing for quite a while now.

Presumably those deaths were through Rules as Written 5e combat rather than fiat house rule and homebrew any gm could simply declare since rocks fall/lightning strikes doesn't offer much room for discussion.

I'm Glad to help you "with actual hard numbers", but understanding is not something that can be forced. Ask for stats or analyzed crunched stats and you shall receive. Someone else has done the work and presented it in a neatly packaged 2 hour video.

Spoiler: here you go

Use the chapters in the video if you want to skip the step by step data presentation and jump straight to sections like findings or statistical analysis.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Exactly. There’s no point rolling for like 90% of things in 5E. The odds are already stacked so wildly in the PCs favor, and the system gives them dozens of ways to stack the odds even more in their favor, the “game” becomes pointless.

But why roll in 5E? To maintain the illusion that it’s possible to challenge the PCs. If the players were told straight out they’d just win all the time, no one would want to play. If the game hides that info and shields the players behind lots of pointless mechanics, everyone can have fun pretending they’re playing a “challenging game”.

Basically 100% of the time. The names of the encounter difficulties were shifted at the last minute. Medium was called easy, etc. And most fights in official 5E products are laughable cakewalks. Following the official combat encounter design only reinforces this. 5E was designed to be non-challenging but provide the illusion of challenge.

Yup. Combat in WotC 5e defaults to theater. It's a shame they aren't more honest about that (at least in the DMG), but I suppose, like you suggested, doing so would cut into sales.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Funny, I would say that’s when it matters the most, because that’s when you have the least ability to access resurrection spells.

It depends I think on how much you value any individual PC you're running. Many people IMO value them too highly, and get upset if they die and their "story" doesn't get told. Me, I roleplay the best I can, but have no problem moving on when my PC dies.

 

[Stormonu]

Very true. I've played in groups on both sides: more role-play vs. more action.

Personally, much of the stuff you mention is only "useful" when it leads to adventure hooks typically: the bolded sections:

But I recognize, for myself and some others I play with, it is because we value the "adventure" more than the individual characters.


I've never played in a group that did it "all the time" because often those intereaction are what hooks the PCs into a potential adventure. In general, you skip over it when it probably won't provide the hook you're looking for.

In a way it is a lot like random encounters while traveling. Some groups do them constantly, others skip them.

The list I provided above trivialize things as follows:

• Criminal Contact (Criminal) - these PCs have the convience of providing a "contact" when otherwise the PCs might have to role-play the social part of the game finding one, meeting them, and such.
• Rustic Hospitality (Folk Hero) - as in your example, food and lodging. You can role-play it out, but until the people you are staying with or their community provides a hook, not much comes from. Ocassionally it is fun to play out, sure, but otherwise...
• Position of Privilege (Noble) - same as folk hero, but also as leverage to get non-nobles to do your bidding. An interesting side-effect I enjoy is when the rulers in a region are in threat of rebellion, so PCs playing the card might find themselves in trouble.
• Ship's Passage (Sailor) - removes the need to role-play getting that ship to that port you needed. Again, yes you can play it out anyway, but unless you believe that'll provide interests/ hooks, a bit of a time sink.
• City Streets (Urchin) - this one isn't too bad, but in time crunch situations in towns can be a blessing indeed. Luckily, being able to move twice as quickly doesn't mean you also know where you need to go, although I have often seen this feature play out that way.
• Wanderer (Outlander) - my bane for exploration challenges! you can always find your way back, easy food/water, etc. I know with magic much of this is moot anyway, but still.

At any rate, I doubt most groups gloss over things all the time, even if some background features offer significant edges or automatic successes, but such is the nature of 5E. Personally, I've just house-ruled most such things offer advantages on related checks, not making them automatic.

To me this sounds like complaining that PCs can say they're going to the general store, knock off some coins and just add the equipment to their sheet without RPing locating the best shop and spending half a session haggling with the shop keeper. Some groups will want to gloss over it, some will want to RP it.

I choose to see these as an opportunity to start a roleplay scene. Characters get a hint on where to start. The criminal PC knows where to go to find the local fence, maybe ask a few questions and get some illicit/cheap gear. It gives the DM a chance to introduce an underworld NPC who may have a job or two for the PC in addition or in return for the information. Same thing with the noble - the character gets a foot in the door into the political machinations of the area they're traveling in, trading favors and information for missions or possible intrigue or even introducing a returning NPC.

If the DM wants to skip over the interactions, or feels it doesn't apply, that's always their call. But I'd like to leave them in for the opportunity to give the players an avenue for mechanical benefits based on their backstory - to give them a springboard for abilities that aren't combat-centric.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The 8 encounter day is supposed to represent the resource management and risk assessment of D&D? I imagine it's supposed to be a press your luck style game. Or like in Darkest Dungeon??

Do people not like resource attrition/management???

I think a lot of modern players have been trained not to like it.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I like attrition management, but I still think six, let alone eight fights between long rests is just too much pacing wise. You can have attrition with three or four harder fights. And for me that is still with using gritty rests. Four fights in one day would be highly unusual pacing for me.