D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[dave2008]

Achilles picks up a rock "that ten strong men of today could not lift" and throws it (at Hector iirc, certainly in a major fight). It seems like the sort of ability some high-level Fighters could have.

Absolutely. The ability to be stronger than 10 strong men is extraordinary.* In Achilles case it is because he has supernatural ancestry (his mother was a Nereid) and that he was dipped in the river Styx (making him virtually immortal).

*In the context of this thread these words: magic / supernatural / extraordinary are simply talking about phenomena that are impossible in RL. They are a simple shortcut for: something that has no rational, scientific, or logical explanation, i.e. impossible.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

That doesn't make him correct!

The X-gene is fiction and produces impossible results. Doing the impossible is the expectation of magic. It may not be defined as magic in the fiction, but it is indistinguishable outside the fiction.

Question: why is the word magic or magical so scary for you. Would you prefer a different word? Do you realize when people say it is magic / supernatural / extraordinary they are simply talking about phenomena that are impossible in RL. The word doesn't matter, it is simple a shortcut for: something that has no rational, scientific, or logical explanation, i.e. impossible.

Does that mean technology is magic?

 

[dave2008]

Does that mean technology is magic?

No, tech has a rational, scientific, and logical explanation for what it does IRL.

PS - this was in the last sentence of the text you quoted.

Now there is the infamous quote that sufficiently advanced technology will appear like magic to those who don't understand it / are unaware of it. I mean, cell phones and what they can do would appear like magic to anyone 150 years ago or so.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Suspension of disbelief has limits, and when you have superhuman stuff happen with no explanation I can definitely see them.

It seems like the most entry level SoD to me? This is a fantasy world where myths and legends come to life and a human displays some beyond-earth capabilities like enhanced strength or skill but you’re screaming at us here ‘but how could they do that? Humans can’t do that in the real world??? Tell me how they did that!’ This Is Not The Real World, and the people in it are capable of More, it’s as simple as that.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Absolutely. The ability to be stronger than 10 strong men is extraordinary.* In Achilles case it is because he has supernatural ancestry (his mother was a Nereid)

So in D&D terms he was similar to a genasi or an aasimar. Pretty basic thing a character can just be.

and that he was dipped in the river Styx (making him virtually immortal).

That, BTW, is not part of the original myth but a Roman addition. There is an important plot point in Iliad when Patroclus disguised himself as Achilles by wearing his armour. I wondered why would an invulnerable person need an armour, but turns out the invulnerability bit was added later on.

 

[Tonguez]

That doesn't make him correct!

The X-gene is fiction and produces impossible results. Doing the impossible is the expectation of magic. It may not be defined as magic in the fiction, but it is indistinguishable outside the fiction.

So is technology - and therein lies the rub.

Iff as you say it is possible to seperate technology from magic then both can be defined, even if just by their differences. People in fantasy want to be able define magic from not-magic, and giving labels like Technology, Sci-Fi, Weird Science, mutant powers, psionics, Extraordinary Ability or Mundane skill allows them to codify their fantasy how they want it.
Reducing everything to magic because it doesnt fit my definition of the ‘real world’ is limiting and unhelpful

 

[dave2008]

So is technology - and therein lies the rub.

I will repost what I wrote in another response:

"No, tech has a rational, scientific, and logical explanation for what it does IRL.

PS - this was in the last sentence of the text you quoted.

Now there is the infamous quote that sufficiently advanced technology will appear like magic to those who don't understand it / are unaware of it. I mean, cell phones and what they can do would appear like magic to anyone 150 years ago or so."

Iff as you say it is possible to seperate technology from magic then both can be defined, even if just by their differences. People in fantasy want to be able define magic from not-magic, and giving labels like Technology, Sci-Fi, Weird Science, mutant powers, psionics, Extraordinary Ability or Mundane skill allows them to codify their fantasy how they want it.
Reducing everything to magic because it doesnt fit my definition of the ‘real world’ is limiting and unhelpful

In response to the bold part, I have never been talking about "in fantasy." I have always been talking about in a rules book for an RPG.

Now, I would much prefer these various things be defined clearly with as much specific jargon as needed for the game to operate smoothly.

However, my entry in this thread was initially only to state my preference for a delineation of what is possible IRL and what is fantastic (i.e. impossible IRL) in a very narrow sense.* For the game to recognize that difference (and for players to be able to do both if they want). So I was just using the term "magic" to simplify the discussion as to what is impossible. A blanket term because the nuance of the difference reasons/sources was not relevant to what I was trying to discuss. Reduction was useful, I thought, for that discussion.

Does that make sense?

*I didn't initially state it, but I was really only trying to define a difference between what is physically possible IRL and actions characters could take that are fantastic / not possible IRL. This had nothing to do with casters or casting spells or similar magicks.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So I don't need the game to define abilities as supernatural or extraordinary or whatever, but one thing I say about the comparisons to the real world, I think it would be helpful if the designers had a clear idea what things represent. Like if they had a benchmark that ability score 18 and level 10 is best anyone in the real world can have, then that might help them to consistently gauge what a character with given numbers should be capable of.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It seems like the most entry level SoD to me? This is a fantasy world where myths and legends come to life and a human displays some beyond-earth capabilities like enhanced strength or skill but you’re screaming at us here ‘but how could they do that? Humans can’t do that in the real world??? Tell me how they did that!’ This Is Not The Real World, and the people in it are capable of More, it’s as simple as that.

Then what's wrong with saying that? Why so much resistance to the addition of a small note about this?

 

[Guest 7037866]

the closest approximation we have is the ape (not the giant ape - those are way too big), which is a medium creature with a 16 strength.

True, since gorillas are apes, we could go that route... but since their are four types of traditional apes, and gorillas are by far the strongest of those, one stat block really has to encompass an average of them all.

Now, I will admit, I didn't know the Mississipi had a powerful current, I just remembered it was a wide river. So maybe that one does take a check, except... who says it would be DC 20? An average of 600,000 cubic feet is the highest in the USA... but the highest in the WORLD is 7,380,765.34 cubic feet per second, with another river having 1,454,964 cubic feet per second.

So, these would clearly be higher DCs, right? And the system caps at 30, for tasks that are nearly impossible for god-like beings. So, since the Mississipi is half of what the second strongest river current is, that would make far more sense as a DC 12 or 15. After all... DCs are universal.

Oh, no, no, no...

While DCs are universal, there are far more rivers with low flow rates. The increase of flow rates is expontential, not linear. The Mississippi is 10th in the WORLD. I was probably being generous giving it a (comparatively) lowly DC 20 for this scenario. So, not DC 12 or even 15, but clearly 20 or likely higher.

Additionally, you declare the water as difficult terrain... but is it? That is based solely on the current, which is why there is a DC. You are double dipping. Difficult terrain would be for things in the water, flotsam, lots of fish, heavy vegetation, not the current of the water. So, we are back up to 10 ft per round.

Fine, we can go with your version of difficult terrain, and guess what? The Mississippi is not clean, clear water. It has "things in the water" like floatsam, fish, vegetation (heavy at times), and much more. So, still difficult terrain.

Except... weirdly... you don't account for the action? A player can action dash on their turn, not just move. So it would actually be 20 ft per round.

Well, I didn't want to be presumptive on that since the limit under the chase rules is typically applied to combat. But, sure, if you want.

So, 20 ft per round makes that 250 checks, sure we can say at +0, I'll even give you the DC 15. DMG says that would be about 4 attempts per hit, so that would mean 1,000 turns, which translates to... about an hour and half swim. Which won't kill anyone from exhaustion. Even if I double that because you refuse to allow dash, that is only three hours. Double again because you insist it must be difficult terrain, and I'm looking at six hours.

So, your DC 15 is much too low. Which means you'll have several times the checks...

Therefore, we have 5000 feet, at 10 feet speed (30 - 10 (armor STR restriction) = 20, swim speed 10, difficult terrain 5, but dashing, so back to 10) per check, is 500 checks. At DC 20 (yes, 20 is generous, this is cleary a "hard" task), that equates to 10000 checks, which brings us to 16 hours and 20 minutes... or dead from exhaustion---as I said.

So yeah, if you adjudicate more fairly, even if you insist on rolling because I mentioned the Missisipi... it still is possible.

Well, I did adjudicate "more" fairly, and if you adjudicate more realistically, it really is not possible for the "average" man. They would drown and die.

Okay, go find a college professor, give them an 80 lbs bag, and tell them to march 24 miles a day for a month. I mean, it isn't like we can look at a famous hiking location like the Appalachian trail, where experienced hikers consistently go, and find that they carry way less and average 12 to 16 miles per day on the high end, right?

Oh, moving the goalposts, huh? Who said 24 miles a day? You just said marching for 8 hours... which obviously the travel rules include things like periodic rest, etc. It is difficult terrain, so 12 miles, if you insist on a "distance to cover".

But, hey, let's go crazy! Why 80 lbs? Why not 150 lbs? I mean if you have a person with STR 10, the RAW is just 15 x STR score in pounds. Of course, this is why we have the variant rules. Which 80 lbs at STR 10 would be encumbered, and speed 20 not 30, which for travel would equate to 18 miles, reduced to 9 with difficult terrain.

Regardless, with STR 10 it would be hard at first (college professor or whatever) to carry 80 lbs for a "day's march", but very possible. They would still have 16 hours to rest and after a few days, would fine it easier going as they become assimulated to it.

Ape statblock is meant to represent a gorilla

Well, not really... It also represents gibbons, orangutans, and chimpanzees.

However, we can estimate these creatures are several (whatever number) times stronger than humans, with the exception of gibbons. But all this shows is the game designers didn't bother to research real-life creatures in-depth, otherwise "ape" would likely have a feature to compensate for their strength.

There is also the issue that Strength (ability) often is not treated as "strength" (how strong you actually are).

Since when does gaining levels in 5e require training how to climb? Sure, they have combat expeirence, but just because you took a martial arts class doesn't mean you know how to climb a building.

Well, to make that speed, you have to be a Thief subclass, having the feature Second-Story Work, which says you've gained the ability to climb faster--- that seems like some form of "training" to me.

Also, you seemed to miss something. 6 seconds. That's how long it would take them. Look on people asking advice on climbing, and many people say things like "some routes are 40 ft and can be climbed in under five [minutes]"

I didn't miss anything, not even the 6 seconds part.

Speed climbing (basically this scenario) currently has a world-record under 5 seconds for 15-meters (5 stories). But these contests have frequent handholds, etc. as well as safety precautions to make speed the ultimate concern, not threat to life and limb.

But to say a "normal" person could climb 9 stories in 30 seconds is frankly, pretty silly. (Actually, RAW it would be 36 seconds, not 30...) It is just another case of simple rules over realistic rules.

It could be magic. That's how I've done it. But the larger point was... no, a DnD world does not mostly resemble 1451 Europe, or what modern humans are capable of. It is a place steeped in the impossible.

Well, the issue is that is what WotC made it--sort of. AD&D rules leaned a bit more towards reality in fantasy.

I mean, if people really wanted 1451 Europe, the game should be MUCH different. What it actually is IME is a transplanted world. The level of infusion of magic also varies widely from table to table. There is no real standard.

FWIW, my personal take is extraodinary but plausible, but not magical, for such tasks. Do I have any problem attributing a heroic warrior in plate swimming a mile? No, I can go with that. The wiley thief speed climbing twice as quick as I can see people doing on YouTube? No, that's fine, it is a stretch as "mundane" but plausible in a fantasy world---without the need to say it is "magical".

Yeah. they embrace it so much they refuse to acknowledge any rule that breaks with what they believe reality should be. Hence, the endless barrage of threads like this.

Agreed. Your other post about how this sort of back-and-forth between mundane and fantasy simply stops progress on the real issue is spot on.

So... stronger than a rhino, like I said. Now, do you know how bonkers strong a rhino even is? I'll give you a hint, they can flip cars for fun. And a Pit fiend is as much stronger than that rhino, as a Gorilla is to a human man.

Sure, it is almost Hulk-like. Crazy, huh?

Meant to say "as fast as"

Fair enough, typos and such happen.

Did you read the initial request?

Original: So no matter what you have to imagine a knight getting powerful enough to 1v1 the Devil in a fight.
FrogReaver: or just a human fighter. What’s the devil doing that requires anything more?
My response to Frogreaver you quoted.

The original statement was for The Devil, caps, as in Lucifer. So I responded with a non-named, standard Pitfiend of which there are hundreds, since there isn't a canonical 5e statblock for Asmodeus.

Apologies, I did indeed miss the capital "D".

Regardless, even a 20th level Fighter with some good magic items wouldn't be able to solo a Pit Fiend... let alone the mundane knight.

FWIW, I completely agree if the game is fantasy and the PCs were mundane, they would never leave home.