D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[CreamCloud0]

I am fine with calling anything "unrealistic" that happens in this setting magic

I am not fine with calling that thing magic if a requirement of me calling it magical is that I must accept that the thing is subjected to whatever rules there are in the setting that governs magic.

That is: If we have a monk that can jump supernaturally high I am fine with calling that magical, but I am not fine with having that affected by antimagic field. Because antimagic field is something specific to the magic of the setting, the arcane arts, whatever you want to call it.

This is why I prefer the term supernatural. Because supernatural is not tied in to the concept of magic in D&D and has no particular association with any particular deities, for example. D&D has a goddess of magic and everything supernatural does not belong to her domain.

while i agree with this, i still wish that 'extraordinary' was still used as a distinct categorisation from supernatural and magical, the aesthetics of flavour are sometimes just as important to being able to have fun as the mechanics of flavour.

extraordinary: i cannot fly, but i can still scale a cliff in moments or jump 60ft easy as you like.
supernatural: my dragon ancestry allowed me to grow a pair of flesh and blood wings to fly with.
magical: i know how to manipulate the magical energies to let me cast fly.

the benefits of extraordinary vs supernatural vs magical being something like a scale of usage capacity vs power,
extraordinary powers being slightly more limited but most infinitely useable, you can jump as much as you like but you're subject to gravity and can't control yourself in the air,
supernatural means you can fly but either limited uses or other restrictions like not in heavy armour or eating your bonus action every turn to keep you airbourne,
magical ignores restrictions like heavy armour or using more action aconomy but has distinct limited uses coming from spell slots and has to contend with things like counterspell and anti-magic.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

That depends on what your intent is with arguing that it is magic.

I am fine calling whatever magic, if magic is used as to label something that isn't realistic. I am willing to say that an exceptional ability to jump is "magical".

But if your intent with trying to make me argue that it is magical because the effect is, within the context of the RPG itself, magical, then I will disagree.

I am having a hard time understanding the distinction you are trying to make, but...

The distinction is because "magical" has a defined meaning within the context of the RPG itself, different to how it is being used in this thread.

Saying that anything beyond what a normal human can achieve must be explicitly labelled as supernatural or magical is problematic for those who like the martial hero concept. But we can come to understand that you're simply using those words as a label for anything that you personally feel isn't realistic, like hand crossbows, dragons flying, taking less than a second to strike someone, swimming in armour etc.
That is fine - These boards are diverse and people of all types use them. Some people using a word a bit differently than others is a source of strife and confusion, but it can be worked around if that is understood as what is happening.

Within the context of the RPG itself however, insisting something is magical has actual effects with actual rules. Hand crossbows glow under detect magic. Dispel magic can be used to drop dragons out of the sky. Fighters stop getting extra attacks and whatever other class abilities you think are unrealistic in an antimagic zone.

I believe that that is the distinction MuhVerisimilitude was making.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think that the best expression of the ideal that I would like to see rather than the suggestion in the OP is the warblade class from the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.
They weren't magical or supernatural. Their maneuvers allowed them to do extraordinary things, but all functioned within the concept of pure skill and disciplined training within a fantasy world.

Furthermore they were interesting and fun. They often did less DPS that an optimised fighter could, but their maneuvers actually scaled with level, giving more of a sense of progression. The playstyle was somewhat more engaging as well.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Within the context of the RPG itself however, insisting something is magical has actual effects with actual rules. Hand crossbows glow under detect magic. Dispel magic can be used to drop dragons out of the sky. Fighters stop getting extra attacks and whatever other class abilities you think are unrealistic in an antimagic zone.

just to be clear, you're saying these things don't happen, but would and it would be weird if they did happen if these 'fantasy extraordinary' things were classified as magical, and they're being classified as magical just because they're beyond what's possible on earth, rather than measuring by 'what's naturally possible' in DnD fantasyworld.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

just to be clear, you're saying these things don't happen, but would and it would be weird if they did happen if these 'fantasy extraordinary' things were classified as magical, and they're being classified as magical just because they're beyond what's possible on earth, rather than measuring by 'what's naturally possible' in DnD fantasyworld.

Indeed.

Or more correctly, what some people think is beyond what's possible on earth.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes I agree. The disagreement seems to be twofold (but I am not really sure why people are getting so worked up about it). Different people may not share both this concerns.

1. I would prefer the game to have clear game jargon for various different magical or supernatural elements. So rules interactions are clearly understood. Like anti-magic works on magic, but not supernatural things (as an example). What this means for setting could be different from setting to setting.
2. I have had several posts suggest that it is not a fantasy game if my humans can't do amazing unreal physical things (things people can not do in real life). I don't wish to gatekeep. I want to be able to play mundane characters and fantastic characters (and understand the difference) in the same rules (doesn't even have to be the same setting - it is all about clear rules for me).

That is basically what I am asking for, not sure why that is such a no go for some people.

If I could have both those things clearly specified I would drop the rest (mostly the result of getting worked up) and be satisfied.

 

[Micah Sweet]

it really doesn't run on any more 'rule of cool' than any other shounen series, sure it might have a goofy tone but that doesn't mean it doesn't take itself or it's worldbuilding any less seriously, the various powers exist and they have their set rules, but the people in the world are also just stronger than any 'realworld' person is, like most every DnD world, and it goes without any mention on being weird because it is fantasy,

honestly i think it's most it's apparent in the first few arcs when things are happening fairly back-to-back where zoro is fighting his swordfights while still recovering from injuries from the last battles and he tanks enough damage that probably should've killed him several times over, even just after the first fight if he were a 'normal' human, but he doesn't die, because that's not how these things go.

What's a shounen series?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I am fine with calling anything "unrealistic" that happens in this setting magic

I am not fine with calling that thing magic if a requirement of me calling it magical is that I must accept that the thing is subjected to whatever rules there are in the setting that governs magic.

That is: If we have a monk that can jump supernaturally high I am fine with calling that magical, but I am not fine with having that affected by antimagic field. Because antimagic field is something specific to the magic of the setting, the arcane arts, whatever you want to call it.

This is why I prefer the term supernatural. Because supernatural is not tied in to the concept of magic in D&D and has no particular association with any particular deities, for example. D&D has a goddess of magic and everything supernatural does not belong to her domain.

Completely on board with all of that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Within the context of the RPG itself however, insisting something is magical has actual effects with actual rules. Hand crossbows glow under detect magic. Dispel magic can be used to drop dragons out of the sky. Fighters stop getting extra attacks and whatever other class abilities you think are unrealistic in an antimagic zone.

I believe that that is the distinction MuhVerisimilitude was making.

I don't think anyone is arguing for those things.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Indeed.

Or more correctly, what some people think is beyond what's possible on earth.

Hey, I'm willing to change my stance on what's possible on Earth in the face of new evidence.