D&D General The thread where I review a ton of Ravenloft modules

[Echohawk]

So far as I can tell, the module doesn't state a level range, unless it is in small print on the back cover.

I've now spent far too much time investigating this and there really doesn't seem be any official indication of the level range for Feast of Goblyns anywhere. There are several places online which agree that it is for level 4-7, but I can't find an authoritative source for that level range.

I checked the 1990 TSR catalog listing—nothing. I've looked through old Dragon letters columns for errata—nothing. I even went to the trouble of checking Google's archive of Usenet news posts for rec.games.frp.dnd—nothing, other than a thread about how the module doesn't have a recommended level. (Anyone else who remembers rec.games.frp.dnd, congratulations, you too are now old! )

As far as I can tell, someone guesstimated levels 4-7 at some point in the last few decades and that's stuck, being copied by everyone who was making a list of D&D adventures and the relevant levels. So it seems that we're stuck with internet consensus on this issue.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

One of the reasons I really don't like the 2nd edition Ravenloft Boxed set was the way it stated up all the dark lords as monsters that could be fought. I know a lot of players treated that as a hitlist and travelled round the land killing dark lord for the LOLs. Not exactly horror gaming when the monsters should be hiding from the PCs!

And that is an issue with D&D mechanics is that it is designed for the PCs to be fantasy heroes. As mentioned, in the novel Dracula the heroes take advantage of the monster's weakness that it must return to a coffin to rest during the day. But in D&D how do you get the players to play like that, rather than going to confront the monster directly? Without killing them dead when they try! I have a feeling a lot of the 2nd edition Ravenloft adventures where written supposing the PCs would behave like typical gothic horror protagonists, not fantasy heroes. Aragorn isn't Jonathan Harker! Certainly the one I had, Ship of Horror, was like this.

Now, solutions. Well, I wrote this trait into the statblock for a werewolf-like darklord of a very minor domain, who the PCs are expected to either kill or free from his curse:

It cannot die!
If the guardian is reduced to zero hit points instead of dying it runs away at maximum speed for 1 minute, then reverts to it's human form and falls unconscious for 8 hours. It can only be permanently killed with a life stealing weapon.

The other issue is that a lot of horror monsters are simply run of the mill and not remotely scary to hardened D&D players. E.g. ghosts. Again, Ship of Horror fails to be scary. The reason I am currently using deranged murdering clowns is these are things that exist in the the real world, and therefore can feel threatening to the players, rather than something they know does not exist and therefore cannot be a threat. The OP mentioned triggers - something that (along with female players) wasn't considered back when most of these adventures were written. You need to be wary of these especially when using less fantastical threats.

The other approach is the mindscrew. Challenge the players sense of reality. The best Ravenloft adventure I know of is City of Eyes (on the DMG). Rather than trying to be realistic, it deliberately undermines the players sense of reality. For more ideas of how to do this, especially for powerful heroes, I recommend watching the 70s TV show Sapphire and Steel. It's streaming on ITVX in the UK.

 

[James Gasik]

I've now spent far too much time investigating this and there really doesn't seem be any official indication of the level range for Feast of Goblyns anywhere. There are several places online which agree that it is for level 4-7, but I can't find an authoritative source for that level range.

I checked the 1990 TSR catalog listing—nothing. I've looked through old Dragon letters columns for errata—nothing. I even went to the trouble of checking Google's archive of Usenet news posts for rec.games.frp.dnd—nothing, other than a thread about how the module doesn't have a recommended level. (Anyone else who remembers rec.games.frp.dnd, congratulations, you too are now old! )

As far as I can tell, someone guesstimated levels 4-7 at some point in the last few decades and that's stuck, being copied by everyone who was making a list of D&D adventures and the relevant levels. So it seems that we're stuck with internet consensus on this issue.

Ok, so, looking at my copy of Feast of Goblyns, the back cover says this:

However, given the fact that there's potential enemies like a Dark Lord, a 180 year old vampire, and a 13th level Necromancer, I think the best advice the adventure gives is this:

You really could run the adventure for groups of wildly different levels, and all that changes is how the PC's will approach the game. There's a section devoted to "hey what if the PC's kill this guy?", fully expecting murderhobo behavior, when in reality, some of these people aren't intended to be combat encounters. It's more like a Vampire: the Masquerade adventure than a traditional D&D one in that respect; it's less about "this is what a PC of x level should be facing" and more "this is how powerful this guy is, approach with caution". And I mean, seeing as how "level" was a very bad benchmark for how powerful a PC was, when you think about it, you pretty much have to eyeball everything. A Fighter 7, a Thief 8, and Mage 5/Cleric 6 all could have the same xp values, and that tells me very little about what to expect beyond knowing the Fighter potentially has 2 attacks per melee (but might only have 3/2 or maybe has 2 if they use a bow or 5 if they use darts) and that the M/C has 3rd level spells on both sides- but whether they have Fireball or Sepia Snake Sigil is a complete unknown. Maybe the Thief has a +1 longsword and a Girdle of Hill Giant Strength and the Fighter has a 15 Strength and a smile due to a run-in with a Rust Monster. And so on, and so forth. You had to eyeball everything in AD&D so level ranges weren't super useful (IME).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's more like a Vampire: the Masquerade adventure

Curiously, Feast of Goblyns was published the year before Vampire: The Masquerade.

 

[James Gasik]

Curiously, Feast of Goblyns was published the year before Vampire: The Masquerade.

It's just the example I used, there's a lot of games, like say, Call of Cthulhu, where you can go from fighting normal people with knives to cultists with shotguns to star vampires unkillable by normal means in the same adventure, lol. I just had V:tM on the brain because a newer Storyteller was just asking me "what sorts of enemies can my Coterie face" and I was like "well....that depends. There is no real answer because it depends on a lot of variable factors. The game doesn't slap a label on an Elder and say ,well, a Coterie that has earned 50 xp can take this guy- because you don't know if your Coterie has a combat crazed Brujah with Potence and Celerity 3 hyped up on speed and spending blood like water or a Toreador who goes everywhere in her red Giuseppe Zanotti satin wing jeweled high-heeled sandals and a black Dolce & Gabbana heavy lace cocktail dress and thinks Celerity is a waste of time because she used it once to dodge with her Dex 3 and Athletics 1 and got hit for 2 aggravated anyways which completely ruined her chance to show up her rival at the Primogen's Salon and hasn't touched the Discipline since."

 

[Bedrockgames]

And that is an issue with D&D mechanics is that it is designed for the PCs to be fantasy heroes. As mentioned, in the novel Dracula the heroes take advantage of the monster's weakness that it must return to a coffin to rest during the day. But in D&D how do you get the players to play like that, rather than going to confront the monster directly? Without killing them dead when they try! I have a feeling a lot of the 2nd edition Ravenloft adventures where written supposing the PCs would behave like typical gothic horror protagonists, not fantasy heroes. Aragorn isn't Jonathan Harker! Certainly the one I had, Ship of Horror, was like this.

The key thing to keep in mind is you the GM are in control of the Dark Lord. The trick is to have Strahd act more like Dracula than a monster trying to slaughter the party. Dark Lords are so powerful, they can make their strength known to the party without killing them, especially if they can find a use for the party.

Also one way I have found to get players to play this way is to simply tell them that research and investigation pay off. Another is to demonstrate how lethal monsters are unless you know their weaknesses. You can even have them learn that through sources in the setting like Van Richten's books

 

[Voadam]

Ok, so, looking at my copy of Feast of Goblyns, the back cover says this:
View attachment 362600

Digging out my hard copy it does too. Thanks.

Very weird that the PDF they sell does not.

I can no longer open the free compressed files they released around 2000 to check that version of the cover.

Heh this all came up as I was adding my new Feast of Goblyns PDF to my list of modules I own by levels with level ranges and now I see I have it already entered from that 2000 file as levels 4-7. I guess the 2000 file cover image I can no longer access had the level range there.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The key thing to keep in mind is you the GM are in control of the Dark Lord. The trick is to have Strahd act more like Dracula than a monster trying to slaughter the party. Dark Lords are so powerful, they can make their strength known to the party without killing them, especially if they can find a use for the party.

Also one way I have found to get players to play this way is to simply tell them that research and investigation pay off. Another is to demonstrate how lethal monsters are unless you know their weaknesses. You can even have them learn that through sources in the setting like Van Richten's books

Not convinced. What would happen in REH's ghostwritten novel Conan meets Dracula?

 

[Voadam]

I've now spent far too much time investigating this and there really doesn't seem be any official indication of the level range for Feast of Goblyns anywhere. There are several places online which agree that it is for level 4-7, but I can't find an authoritative source for that level range.

I checked the 1990 TSR catalog listing—nothing. I've looked through old Dragon letters columns for errata—nothing. I even went to the trouble of checking Google's archive of Usenet news posts for rec.games.frp.dnd—nothing, other than a thread about how the module doesn't have a recommended level. (Anyone else who remembers rec.games.frp.dnd, congratulations, you too are now old! )

As far as I can tell, someone guesstimated levels 4-7 at some point in the last few decades and that's stuck, being copied by everyone who was making a list of D&D adventures and the relevant levels. So it seems that we're stuck with internet consensus on this issue.

Thanks for looking, very weird thing to specifically remove from the PDF version.

And I am pretty sure I've been old for a while.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Not convinced. What would happen in REH's ghostwritten novel Conan meets Dracula?

YMMV so if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. But here are some thoughts I have on this question

This is why the domain concept is so crucial, and why powers checks and monsters all being unique is crucial. Conan would likely find Dracula rises up and kills all his men in the middle of the night after he thought he had dispatched him already. In Ravenloft domain lords are incredibly hard to permanently kill (this varies of course as there is a spectrum). By extension so are even standard vampires and werewolves. You have to do your research into them in order to truly confront them. You can still have encounters with more typical monsters but the core idea is the important ones will have very individualized weaknesses, immunities and power (and ideally these are related to their backgrounds and the decisions that led them into darkness). Players who really want to end a dark lord as a threat, need to research their history, research prior encounters others have had with them, research monsters of their type etc. Even most of the general rules for such creatures are different in Ravenloft so a character like Conan coming from his world is going to have to adapt to the differences even when facing standard versions of the monsters.

Yes, D&D characters have a lot of power, especially at higher levels, so you are not playing John Harker (for that I suggest Masque of the Red Death ) but the system does a good job, at least in my opinion, of bringing gothic horror to the D&D experience. But there are also key changes, like alterations to existing spells (and IMO there is nothing stopping the GM from making further alterations to abilities or spells they feel upset the gothic atmosphere). Obviously if you want something that feels just like Dracula, a different setting and system is the way to go. But I have never had an issue getting players to investigate threats. You just have to lean into the advice in the boxed set and the rules unique to the setting around monsters.

There is going to be fighting for sure, but even Dracula ends in a large battle with the creature and his minions (that is how Quincey Morris bites it)

Another big part of what makes this stuff work, like I said, is running the villains as fleshed out characters who almost get into GMPC territory (this can be taken too far but done well it can work). The Black Boxed set calls out the sequence in Frakenstein where the creature tells Victor his story. The creature doesn't rip him limb from limb like he could. He has goals, he has a specific request and he wants Victor to understand his own culpability in everything that has transpired. This is in part to show how to make a sympathetic and thoughtful villain even if it has committed the ultimate act of murder. But it is also a demonstrating of how to run villains so that they are not just sitting there waiting to take swords in the face.

That said, it is a game. You can't control the players. If the players want to stab the creature in the face, they can try and there isn't anything you can do to make them play it more like Frankenstein. But I think there is enough reward for approaching monsters with more care, that it is pretty easy to do