D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

[Vaalingrade]

So it should also help other spells, not only Suggestion. Which was over-simplified like this because any open use of spell was anathema to 4ed design.

Again: literally in the DMG. and in the Penny Arcade game run by the actual designer.

The 4e people created to rail against was pretty terrible compared to the one that saw print.

 

[Undrave]

It is not the effort involved. It was that 4e did not simulate the range of styles that people were used too seeing in the game. This was a fundamental departure.

Well the people we were talking about were newbies so I don't think they were used to anything.

That's the rub ain't it? It's D&D, a very recognizable name. I don't think you are meaning it in this way but it kinda sounds like they were too dumb to play the game. In my opinion that's a failure in the game if the intended play style isn't sticking to potential new players.

I don't think it was intimidating them as much as maybe it was just too many choices they didn't want to bother with. When 1d4 thru 1d20 is foreign to new players it probably all just looks the same.

I dunno if I would call it a failure, maybe more a weakness... there's plenty of heavy board game out there that are just not for everyone. I feel like DnD's always kinda been like that a little and you need at least one PC who loves to get deep in the crunch to help shoulder the extra brain load of learning complex rules on the go.

Would they have had more fun playing in 3.e where you had to understand BAB and full action? And the difference between being attacked to your AC and making a saving throw?

 

[billd91]

We obviously can't validate this idea, but it is the only plausible alternate 4e universe theory that I have seen. Released under OGL 4e gets wide 3PP support, there's no PF, etc. Instead perhaps we get a wide variety of variant 4e games. Some might well essentially bring back or emulate other games and styles of play, etc. Not saying it would happen, but it is plausible.

Yeah, it's kind of fun to speculate.

I doubt 4e would ever have attained 5e's level of success, though I think it could have done better for itself with decent 3pp support from Paizo and Necromancer. Even without PF, it was going to compete heavily with its predecessor editions considering how different it was. And I don't really see an actual play streaming show like Critical Role breaking out with the complexities of 4e's combat had the edition survived to 2015. I think that and its level of success would have had to wait for a 4e-successor anyway, or maybe something a bit more old school or another iteration of Essentials that drew more from D&D's history than 4e did (and 5e successfully did).

 

[Undrave]

So it should also help other spells, not only Suggestion. Which was over-simplified like this because any open use of spell was anathema to 4ed design.

How would you have done Suggestion? What would you have preferred it to be like? An attack against Will?

 

[niklinna]

Oh yeah the early Paladin was a 'V' class with two potential main stat. That was a misguided experiment and they dropped those pretty fast. No class beyond the PHB1 use that framework and they stopped supporting certain combination. The Cleric stopped getting STR/CHA powers, for exemple, to focus back on STR and WIS. The Warlock barely had any CON powers after a while.

Probably a bad first experience, no doubt.

Oh, definitely. I played a star pact warlock in my one long-running campaign, and I felt that pain. (Cross that with the damage-type/flavor issue I mentioned earlier and it's twice the pain!) It's a bit of a miracle I lasted to the end of the campaign, but the DM was an execellent role-player, and he had bound my warlock well into the story. When we finally got to the pivotal moment, and I realized a little "flavor" tweak he'd made to my character's initial build many years before was the key to the whole thing, it was quite a thrill. But every time we rolled initiative I winced, knowing a couple of hours of whiffed die rolls lay ahead. I won't bother going into more detail, anybody who played a V class more than likely knows.

 

[Undrave]

Oh, definitely. I played a star pact warlock in my one long-running campaign, and I felt that pain. (Cross that with the damage-type/flavor issue I mentioned earlier and it's twice the pain!) It's a bit of a miracle I lasted to the end of the campaign, but the DM was an execellent role-player, and he had bound my warlock well into the story. When we finally got to the pivotal moment, and I realized a little "flavor" tweak he'd made to my character's initial build many years before was the key to the whole thing, it was quite a thrill. But every time we rolled initiative I winced, knowing a couple of hours of whiffed die rolls lay ahead. I won't bother going into more detail, anybody who place a V class more than likely knows.

I played a Warforged Star Pact Warlock. I just dumped CHA and focused on CON (Because Warforged) for my attack powers. It was a little limiting but I played up the madness of the character and it was a fun time anyway. And one of my Cleric as STR/CHA... So, limiting but the challenge was part of the fun I guess.

 

[Minigiant]

@Undrave and @SteveC: If that's the case, why is not used on other spells. You are giving me very elaborated answers but not addressing the point. You don't have to explain me what Arcana does, you have to justify why is used here and here only

Because 4e died before they got to it.

That and niche protection. They didn't want wizards to easily be able to everything well. That was half the point of 4e.

 

[niklinna]

The way some of you get so worked up about all the rules makes me wonder why you still keep playing D&D to begin with.

I am GMing Torg Eternity right now. Compared to that, I'd love to play almost any edition of D&D!

(And yet I do have three T:E character builds I'm very curious to try.)

 

[Umbran]

This is why for 3.x I bring up the wizard with the loose leaf ring binder full of frequently home-made spells.

Apples to apples - comparing a wizard that's allowed tons of home-made content to other classes that are not isn't equitable.

In 5e the wizard can't do everything. But they, uniquely, don't even need a spell prepared to use it as a ritual.

There's only a handful of spells that can be cast as rituals. All told, I think the PHB has 17 ritual spells, about half of which are 1st level. Not exactly immense cosmic power, there.

 

[Hussar]

I don't agree with your premise, here, and I suspect that a lot of other people don't as well.

For sure, there are a few 4E-isms (i.e. things that are unique to 4E) in 5E, but nowhere near the point where you could call it "so much."

Off the top of my head:

Skill system
Monster design
Approach to setting- far more about it being about a place to adventure than world building
Fast healing
A shopping list of effects with no in game relation
Monsters and pcs use different rules
Greatly reduced lethality

To me, it’s baffling.