D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

[MockingBird]

With all due respect, these people should not have been playing DnD. I wouldn't invite them to play Hero Quest...

Duely respected, but....i dont even know how to understand this response.

They wanted to try D&D. What's the correct solution in circa 2008?

 

[Undrave]

I really, really don't understand stereotyping "wizard players" in this way.

It's a grotesque exaggeration. Is every "wizard player" like this? Really? Are they only like this when they play wizards? Or are you talking about players who only play wizards? Are their such players?

I almost never play wizards, because it's not one of my preferred class fantasies. But I have done, on occasion (and all the time as a DM). Do I become like this when I play a wizard?

I don't agree. I don't think there is a "type" of player who is wizard player, a fighter player, or whatever. There are individuals, and maybe a few of them behave like that. I guess. I've been playing for more than 40 years and have never encountered one, though.

Obviously not all Wizard Players are like that... let's call them 'Die hard Wizard Fans' then? People who's favorite class is the Wizard BECAUSE of the dramatic alteration you can do. I find these types of people very vocal and opinionated. They want that specific fantasy and they want MORE of it and get mad when it happens less frequently and they don't want other classes to get those opportunity as often either.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The point I'm making is just that it makes sense that some players would want those rules to fade into the background.

And my point is that they CANNOT do so—not completely like you can with non-interactive media. When you read a book, there is no difference between reading one that is fictional and reading one that is factual. When you listen to a person telling a gripping story, there is no difference between hearing a lived experience and hearing something invented. When you watch a film, assuming it is filmed competently, there is no visual or sensory or behavioral difference between watching a straight up documentary that only shows real, verified footage and one that shows people on a stage pretending to be something. It is possible, in fact highly desirable, to present these things in such a way that the audience cannot actually tell it isn't real while they experience it—it truly becomes indistinguishable from the genuine article, if such a thing existed.

This is not, and cannot be, true of a game. If the game's rules require you, the living breathing person, to roll dice, then you must roll dice. Genuinely nothing about listening to a story, or watching a film, can ever correspond to the actions the player must take in order to comply with rules. There is no "this is a completely true story" equivalent for gameplay, unlike books or spoken stories or even films. Nothing whatever can be the "genuine article" of rolling the dice, celebrating a crit, writing down a new item, etc.

We can, and I agree we should, work to keep intrusions light and useful. But we cannot, even in principle, make rules that can be confused for not actually having any rules at all. We should not try for that. Because that damages the ability to actually play the game.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Neither is Arcana.

Albeit disagreeing, I could follow your answer up now. None is suggesting to use Arcana to FIGHT, but to use spells.

@Undrave and @SteveC: If that's the case, why is not used on other spells. You are giving me very elaborated answers but not addressing the point. You don't have to explain me what Arcana does, you have to justify why is used here and here only.

And I think there is a reason for this. Is all "post facto". There was no vision behind this beyond crippling any "open" spell or power under 4e restrictive design. Otherwise there would have been an integrated connection of Arcana and spellcasting which is simply not there in the overall game.

 

[Belen]

Most options go unused but more option means it's more like for there to be one you want to try. If your favorite class never gets new options you won't find new stuff to experiment with.

I do not usually see people sticking with the same class and/or build from game to game.

 

[Undrave]

Duely respected, but....i dont even know how to understand this response.

They wanted to try D&D. What's the correct solution in circa 2008?

If they didn't want to put in the minimal effort demanded by a complex system like 4e, it probably wasn't for them as they clearly didn't care for tactical combat. And that's perfectly fine. As for what else they could have played I don't recall what all was available in 2008 so I don't know. It also depends what attracted them to try D&D of course and also depends what they mean by 'just want to hit things'.

Personally I have trouble understanding what makes Twin Strike or Cleave or Eldritch Blast that much more intimidating than a melee basic attack, but I'm not your pals so... who knows?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Albeit disagreeing, I could follow your answer up now. None is suggesting to use Arcana to FIGHT, but to use spells.

....that is what it is being used for. It is being used to improvise a magical effect (in this case, the magical effect of "get someone to agree to do what I want them to do, by using magic formulae and applied arcane power, not actual social skill and grace.")

One valid interpretation? The Bene Gesserit Voice. Arcane skill in voice modulation and post-hypnotic suggestion planting to get someone to behave as desired. Just as the Bene Gesserit Voice does not always work (some are naturally resistant, some have learned to resist it, and some would comply but not as intended), so too does this not always work. Skill with manipulating the tone and structure of your voice via magical knowledge and practice does not translate to better ability to land other types of spells.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

....that is what it is being used for. It is being used to improvise a magical effect (in this case, the magical effect of "get someone to agree to do what I want them to do, by using magic formulae and applied arcane power, not actual social skill and grace.")

One valid interpretation? The Bene Gesserit Voice. Arcane skill in voice modulation and post-hypnotic suggestion planting to get someone to behave as desired. Just as the Bene Gesserit Voice does not always work (some are naturally resistant, some have learned to resist it, and some would comply but not as intended), so too does this not always work. Skill with manipulating the tone and structure of your voice via magical knowledge and practice does not translate to better ability to land other types of spells.

... And I asked above why Arcana only helps here and not with other spells.
Also I seriously doubt the BG voice is a good parallel with D&D magic, but ok.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Albeit disagreeing, I could follow your answer up now. None is suggesting to use Arcana to FIGHT, but to use spells.

@Undrave and @SteveC: If that's the case, why is not used on other spells. You are giving me very elaborated answers but not addressing the point. You don't have to explain me what Arcana does, you have to justify why is used here and here only.

And I think there is a reason for this. Is all "post facto". There was no vision behind this beyond crippling any "open" spell or power under 4e restrictive design. Otherwise there would have been an integrated connection of Arcana and spellcasting which is simply not there in the overall game.

And see, this last bit is where you are doing the catch-22.

Unless there's already a single, established, written-in-stone justification, it's unacceptable. But as soon as there is one, well, now you've been locked into that and only that and can't roleplay, can't freely reinterpret it to be what makes sense for the character.

Heads 5e wins. Tails 4e loses.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

... And I asked above why Arcana only helps here and not with other spells.

I...I just said that. I literally said that.

"Skill with manipulating the tone and structure of your voice via magical knowledge and practice does not translate to better ability to land other types of spells."

Are you even reading what I write?