D&D General The thread where I review a ton of Ravenloft modules

[Stormonu]

Did you ever try out the 5e version by Jeremy Forbing? Is that the one you’re referring to? I read it recently and there’s a few things that seem odd but haven’t heard from anyone who actually used it.

Where does one get that version? I don't see it on DriveThruRPG.

 

[Bedrockgames]

IMNSHO, the 2E rules are a poor fit for Ravenloft, and the adventure designers just couldn't get past that (which I think was a huge reason we ended up with Masque). But the lands of Ravenloft do hit a lot differently when the party is majority human (and, at best demi-humans of elves, dwarves, halflings, half-elves, gnomes and on the far outside half-orcs) instead of the wild variety of races available in 5E.

If that is your opinion, that is fair. But I would disagree. I think one of the things Ravenloft did so well was take gothic and classic horror but fit it to the conceits and mechanics of of D&D. That is what made it so gameable for me and why I ran so many long term Ravenloft campaigns. I do like Masque of the Red Death (just got my POD version and haven't read it in ages so I am looking forward to exploring it again). And Masque of the Red Death was lots of fun, but I found it worked much better for one shots or short campaigns than long campaigns. Also it always ran into the problem of recruitment which was "why not just play CoC or Orrorsh (for TORG)".

In terms of 2E specifically, this is obviously preference but I would suggest anyone who hasn't played 2E or hasn't played in a long time, try giving Ravenloft with the 2E mechanics a try (and to make a good faith effort at it). To give some backstory here, I cut my teeth on 2E Ravenoft, but like most gamers I knew, when 3E came out, I made the switch. And like a lot of gamers, I saw 2E and 1E as passe and clunky after that. However I noticed when I ran Ravenloft using the 3E materials, it didn't feel the same. I assumed this was me being nostalgic for the 90s or being in a different headspace when I was young. But after getting frustrated with how railroady a lot of 3E felt and how focused it was on stuff like miniatures, EL/CR and system mastery, almost as a joke I picked up the 1E DMG again and started reading it. I realized there was actually a lot of solid advice in there (and I realized I had lost something along the way from when I started on 1E to that point). Again almost as a joke I suggested to my players that we run 2E Ravenoft. I expected the system to be ungainly and to suck compared to the new technology of 3E. I was wrong. The very first session, all that atmospehre flooded back to the table. And it wasn't nostalgia. I think what it was was the system was focused on very different things and it didn't have little inhibitors in it like Bluff and Diplomacy it forced the players to interact with NPCs more, to be more specific in their investiagionts, etc). But there was just something about the system that felt very different in play.

Now I have only played 5E a handful of times, so I can't comment on that. I do think the human centric focus of old Ravenloft is certainly a better fit. But 2E wasn't human centric, they just made the world that way, so I think in any system it would be possible to restore that.

 

[TiQuinn]

Where does one get that version? I don't see it on DriveThruRPG.

It’s on DMsGuild.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I don't think you can objectively argue it's worse because of that. Horror has a lot of cliches that it doesn't need (the black guy dies first, the busty bimbo dies naked, etc) and horror isn't worse for losing those. I say that as someone who loves black and white vintage horror and someone who loves the Scream movies willingness to mock horror tropes.

I don't think it is objective. Our enjoyment of movies, books, games, this is highly subjective. One of my issues with the discourse around tropes is it acts as if, because there has been an ongoing discourse about it, that their conclusions are objective. I don't think they are. I think there are other ways to understand these tropes. Also in some instances the tropes themselves haven't been well analyzed and narratives have simply been repeated. I have been doing so for a podcast lately and I am often surprised by how the history of these tropes don't match the legends we sometimes create around them). Also I would push back in many instances. And I would say there are times when we have overly sanitized horror, made it more socially acceptable and polite, but not made it better. That doesn't mean you won't have good writers who can work around these parameters or that you won't have bold directors defying them (The Witch arguably does this well). One of the best horror movies ever made, Bride of Frankenstein, was filmed during the Hayes code for example. But I do find that the process of purifying genres like this, doesn't necessarily lead to anything better (and often times just ends up disallowing flavors and tones that would have made a movie that much stronger)

 

[Bedrockgames]

But even in the 70s thru the 90s, there were instances that used the trope well (or originated it) and became the high point and then there were the hundreds of poor imitations. Halloween was one of the best slashers for a reason and remains effective, and at least, I could argue what comes after it is valuable only in its repetitive nature allows us to get to its deconstruction with Scream in the early 90s, which is probably the second best slasher movie.

Sure there is always schlock. But I also love schlocky slasher movies. And scream was good, at least in the moment in time it was made (I find it doesn't hold up as well years later, but maybe that is just me). I wouldn't call it the second best slasher movie myself but that is a personal preference, not a fact. Also Wes Craven is a genius. I love his movies in general.

But just because a genre is overusing tropes, that doesn't mean the genre ends with Halloween. Halloween is a high mark in horror in general. But Friday the 13th is an incredible horror movie and so is Friday the 13th part 6. My issue isn't so much with people forgoing old tropes in order to do something new, but the way we kind of create this taboo around them (don't do that its old, don't do that its problematic). You go back to older movies like Halloween, like Black Christmas, like Lifeforce or The Exorcist. These hold up, and I think they would be diminished if you cleansed them for tropes

 

[TiQuinn]

And I would say there are times when we have overly sanitized horror, made it more socially acceptable and polite, but not made it better. That doesn't mean you won't have good writers who can work around these parameters or that you won't have bold directors defying them (The Witch arguably does this well).

Not sure what you mean by overly sanitized. I can name several excellent horror movies over the past decade or so that have either had plenty of gore or dealt with sensitive topics. There’s been still been plenty of room for what I think is shock/schlock horror. I don’t see horror being worse in recent times - I think it’s been much better actually.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Not sure what you mean by overly sanitized. I can name several excellent horror movies over the past decade or so that have either had plenty of gore or dealt with sensitive topics. There’s been still been plenty of room for what I think is shock/schlock horror. I don’t see horror being worse in recent times - I think it’s been much better actually.

You are right. I think horror movies haven't suffered that much from this effect. Generally horror fans are more okay with problematic content. I think I overstated my case

 

[TiQuinn]

You go back to older movies like Halloween, like Black Christmas, like Lifeforce or The Exorcist. These hold up, and I think they would be diminished if you cleansed them for tropes

It’s funny you mention this because I just watched The First Omen last week and was surprised by how unnerving it was in terms of content and how relevant its themes were. It was definitely not sanitized - I would say for some people, it’d make them damned uncomfortable. I see those movies that you list as being largely celebrated and emulated, though perhaps not successfully.

 

[der_kluge]

How would the PCs do that, since they don't know what the threat is? And here is a historical note: Manacles are agonisingly painful, no one would willingly agree to wear them.

That's kind of the point of "stronghold" gameplay. The players can expect to have to defend it.

Maybe they have an NPC ally who could become the keeper, or one of the players decides they want to semi-retire a character and start a new one? It's nothing insurmountable if the DM and players want to take the campaign in that direction.

I feel like we're going in circles here. To be clear, I didn't hate The Baron's Eyrie. I just think it has some potential loopholes that need to be thought there, and there's definitely areas where it can be improved. It's a solid module, overall. I was actually surprised by it, since I expected it to be a disaster at first glance.

And yes, the stronghold is interesting, but definitely not insurmountable. GMs just need to be aware that this likely isn't going to be an "Oh, I need a module to run for Saturday night, I'll run this", without realizing it's going to have some pretty major ramifications for their continuing campaign.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It’s funny you mention this because I just watched The First Omen last week and was surprised by how unnerving it was in terms of content and how relevant its themes were. It was definitely not sanitized - I would say for some people, it’d make them damned uncomfortable. I see those movies that you list as being largely celebrated and emulated, though perhaps not successfully.

Like I said in my other post, I think I overstated the case. In honest reflection, modern horror movies are one of the genres that haven't been sanitized in recent years. I must admit a preference for older horror, but I think that is more to do with liking practical effects and older cinematic pacing and techniques.

Of the ones I listed, I think Black Christmas is the most unnerving (my wife actually couldn't get through ti when I tried to show it to her). Halloween is just a perfect movie. For me that film exceeds the genre. Lifeforce Works because it leans into the sexuality of it and is just such a strange concept (I often think of it as the Deep Purple song Burn turned into a movie---and I wrote an adventure module for friends myself based on it). The exorcist is another pinnacle and worthy of a whole discussion on its own

I haven't seen the First Omen so I can't really comment, but I believe that what you say sounds fair because I know I have seen other horror films in recent years that do the same thing. To be clear though I am not strictly just talking about blood and guts stuff, but a simple willingness to use tropes people might considered outdated or not fit for modern polite society.