D&D General (SPOILERS for Vecna: Eve of Ruin) Are My Standards Too High for Adventures?

[Parmandur]

As others have said, no, that's not right - part of it was my mistake, part of it is yours (you're mistaking @Parmandur saying $15 for 15% and you've got the WotC-distributor cut backwards...) At any rate, no - it's like this:

Book Retail: ~$50 USD. WotC: $17.50 (less the cost of making it, naturally); Distributor: $12.50; FLGS: $20

Amazon, it seems, gets distributor price, so they might charge, say, $35 for a $50 book, give WotC their $17.50 per, and make $17.50 per themselves. In the time they sell 20K of them (making $350K less their warehouse and shipping expenses) your FLGS probably moves 20 and makes themselves 400 bucks, less paying their employees, their landlord, and probably the cost of shipping those 20 copies from their distributor to their store. (Personally, I drive an hour to pick them up, so time & gas).

But no, not 60%, and no, WotC's not getting 15%.

And that is what was original about Amazon's entire model from the beginning: collapsing distribution and retail. Hence low prices bit tons of money.

Long term, maybe not socially sustainable...

 

[Demetrios1453]

If you kill Vecna the party loses becuase it straight up says, the only way to win is to use the chime. It makes no mention of killing vecna as an option. Literally the only conclusion other then failure is reading the block from using the chime. If you kill Vecna, his spirit goes on and does the lich thing so you can't chime him. somehow the ritual must continue even if he devoid of his physical body, otherwise it would state killing vecna as a win condition. Its not even implied as a way to win.

I think you're being a bit pedantic here. I'll go with @occam (who is the namesake of Occam's Razor, after all) and that, while killing Vecna isn't a 100% victory since he can just re-start the ritual once he comes back, it's probably good enough for pretty much any adventuring group.

I know you'll just respond with "But the text says...", so I'll just preemptively say that I disagree with that particular interpretation and agree to disagree.

 

[Distracted DM]

I think you're being a bit pedantic here. I'll go with @occam (who is the namesake of Occam's Razor, after all) and that, while killing Vecna isn't a 100% victory since he can just re-start the ritual once he comes back, it's probably good enough for pretty much any adventuring group.

I know you'll just respond with "But the text says...", so I'll just preemptively say that I disagree with that particular interpretation and agree to disagree.

I don't know for sure because I don't have the adventure in front of me, but based on the descriptions provided this kind of sounds like if the party is so murderhobo that they don't actually complete the objective of Destroying The Doomsday Device after killing Vecna and they just leave, then yeah it might be problematic.

If James Bond shoots The Big Villain with a tranquilizer dart but DOESN'T blow up the Giant Space Laser and just leaves... Yeah when TBV wakes up it'll be a problem.

 

[Cergorach]

When the adventure was announced and some details of it's scope were made clear, it was pretty obvious that this was going to be a roller coaster ride in a theme park that's having it's 50th year anniversary... Around the planes in 80 days (or significantly less)... If your not prepared to go with the flow or the concept of a D&D roller coaster ride with all the big bads, just don't run it.

Now a bigger issue might not be the scope, but that it might actually get to be a boring ride with having to fetch all those parts. It seems to start out pretty decent though...

 

[UngainlyTitan]

You're complaining about Micah complaining.

Of course, now I guess I'm complaining about you complaining about Micah complaining.

Quick, someone complain about me complaining!

Well since you asked, I will comment.
In my opinion the issue with complaints (and also with some praise) is that they are flat statements that invite no further comment. They are conversation stoppers. This is a discussion, the best comments are ones that provoke further comments.
Though I will admit that this may not be the easiest thing to achieve in the small wee hour of the night.
I will note that my meagre attempts mostly fail in this regard also.

 

[Distracted DM]

When the adventure was announced and some details of it's scope were made clear, it was pretty obvious that this was going to be a roller coaster ride in a theme park that's having it's 50th year anniversary... Around the planes in 80 days (or significantly less)... If your not prepared to go with the flow or the concept of a D&D roller coaster ride with all the big bads, just don't run it.

Now a bigger issue might not be the scope, but that it might actually get to be a boring ride with having to fetch all those parts. It seems to start out pretty decent though...

It seemed like the issue wasn't the concept, but the execution.

 

[occam]

I don't know for sure because I don't have the adventure in front of me, but based on the descriptions provided this kind of sounds like if the party is so murderhobo that they don't actually complete the objective of Destroying The Doomsday Device after killing Vecna and they just leave, then yeah it might be problematic.

If James Bond shoots The Big Villain with a tranquilizer dart but DOESN'T blow up the Giant Space Laser and just leaves... Yeah when TBV wakes up it'll be a problem.

I don't see a meaningful difference in the two outcomes. If the PCs kill Vecna:

If Vecna is slain, his soul refuses to accept its fate and lives on as a disembodied spirit that fashions a new body for itself after 1d100 years. Vecna’s new body appears within 100 miles of where he was slain.

However, if they "achieve victory" by using the Chime to banish him to Oerth:

Though stymied, Vecna is far from undone. He might stubbornly attempt to destroy and re-create the multiverse again, or he might formulate a new scheme to bend the cosmos to his will. Either way, it will be some time before a new band of adventurers must rise to defeat the archlich once again.

You have to assume he's coming back in either case. If you kill him, at least you know you've got a year to prepare, if not more.

 

[occam]

The E1 you looked at is for Vecnas Grasp, I'm talking about E1 and E2 in the cave of shattered reflection. As it stands now vecna could just walk into one of those rooms, because he can go through the doors as normal, and just chill in there forever because the players couldn't do anything about it.

Ah, I see. Yeah, that seems like a mapping error, but... does it matter? From what I can tell, those two chambers serve no purpose. In fact, I'm doubtful about the whole setup; all this stuff with the walls and the doors feels kind of pointless. In play, it seems like the PCs will eventually touch one of the rubies at A2, B1, C1, or D1 and encounter Vecna at work in the center, then get down to business. Maybe it's more baffling from the player perspective than I'm considering, something like the maze in Pyramid, and could be fun for a few minutes.

I suppose if Vecna decides to run and hide from the PCs, then yes, those chambers as mapped could be a problem. As DM, I'd rather switch the gems around than try to play out that possibility. That's if Vecna would even consider running; he seems like a pretty determined and confident sort, and basically knows he won't go down forever no matter what happens. He can just try something again later on.

 

[htap]

IF the PCs kill vecna the ritual is not stopped. Thats the issue. The ritual will finish thus the party has failed. Potentially the ritual isn't even delayed his soul very well could finish the ritual sans a body. Either way the adventure is clear on a single win condition.

As far as the map error, yes thats exactly the issue. If Vecna goes into one of those rooms the PCs lose. Because he can finish the ritual and the players are powerless to stop him. Again it also is a larger issues of the map design in the first place. It seems to me the intent was for vecna to be able to teleport around all the walls and make the party sort of chase him. Or maybe it was something else. But the rules and text of the encounter dont match what the map looks like it was for.

All of this was to say. It's clear the final fight was either rushed, over edited, or poorly written. Perhaps one designer had a grand idea that cut, so the map does not make sense. The single win condition is so cut down it leaves a DM who's trying to follow the book closely have a very hard time because the single win condition is so limiting.

I like the book, I like the ideas, Im gonna run this campaign at least twice. All im sayin was to the what the OP said, this book clearly has issues and I think the final encounter is the most concentrated weakness of the whole book. It has several errors, omissions, etc.. It highlights that something went very wrong. So much so I think think the final encounter needs a large errata.

Final thoughts are still that I'm overall positive, and the issues are an easy fix. Just wanted to point them out as an example.

ramble ramble ramble

 

[Shardstone]

Ill say the dungeons in this book are pretty good. It's just the plot that is a little stupid. But the dungeons are really fun reading through them, with some exciting components and moving parts. I think my favorite is the Spelljammer that's crashed into the corpse and heart of a dying god of chaos and the screw is scattered and salaad are replacing people and its all kinds of cool stuff.

They also did a great job with Pandemonium and Eberron, the latter of which comes with a cool water elemental-AI companion that is the spirit of the colossus dungeon you're inside of, itself filled with anti-gravity chambers and all kinds of neat stuff.

Overall, the pieces this book gives a DM are great. If you are looking for a good story, look elsewhere. If you're looking for a bunch of nifty high-level adventure examples, it excels.