D&D General Lowest level of magic that still "feels like D&D"

i wonder if the people who have issues with cantrips would continue to have issues with them if all of the damaging ones were removed? maybe a few might remain but become class features, like how eldritch blast is for warlock in 5.5(IIRC), vicious mockery for bard, sacred flame for cleric...

but if it was just ones like light, mage hand, mending.
 

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i wonder if the people who have issues with cantrips would continue to have issues with them if all of the damaging ones were removed? maybe a few might remain but become class features, like how eldritch blast is for warlock in 5.5(IIRC), vicious mockery for bard, sacred flame for cleric...

but if it was just ones like light, mage hand, mending.
For me, not really, no. If we're approaching things from a "it's a game" stance, then I'm fine with whatever some rough semblance of balance requires. If we're approaching things from a "the mechanics simulate a world" stance, then I'd want something like old-school D&D, OSR, WFRP, or Dungeon Crawl Classics magic. A world where magic is everywhere, simple, and easy doesn't make sense and renders the magic completely mundane. The opposite of what I want from an immersive fantasy world.
 

For me, it's more the non-combat neverending cantrips are more troublesome than the combat ones. Guidance, Mending (whoever forgot the lessons of Cure Minor Wounds ought to be booted to the head) being the big ones.

As far as magic limit, I'd go with 3rd. I remember in the likes of 2nd edition that getting 4th level spells really changed the feel of the game.
 


You can, if you can get your players on board with a rules change which is hard to see as anything other than a nerf to all spellcastibg PCs. Often a hard sell, surprisingly.
Sorry you've found that a hard sell, it's been pretty easy IME.

A couple ideas if you want to "soften the blow":

First, use a spell point system instead of spell slots. This way at higher levels a player can choose to cast a 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells instead of a 4th-level spell. A straight 1-1 spell point to spell slot ratio works best IME because it is very easy to remember. Your number of spell points equals your cumulative proficiecny bonus at each level: 2, 4, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 24, etc. If you use the Bonus Spell Slots feature, it is simply Bonus Spell Points instead. If you reach 11th level and higher, you can only cast one "High Magic" spell of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th per long rest. (This puts all casters on par with Warlock's Mystic Arcanum.)

Second, soften the concentration mechanic for spells which allow repeated saves, such as hold person. If a spell requires concentration but allows a target additional chances to remove the effects of the spell, the target makes additional saves (or whatever) at disadvantage while you maintain concentration. If you lose concentration, the spell continues but the target gains advantage on the saving throw. You can choose to voluntarily drop your concentration.

Finally, employ any or all of the new features below to allow casters more versatility without drastically increasing their power.

Bonus Spell Slots (most helpful in tier 1)
You have a pool of spell slots equal to your spellcasting ability modifier. When you cast a spell, you expend spell slots from this pool before expending spell slots granted by your spellcasting feature. Your pool of spell slots resets when you finish a long rest.

Cantrip Recharge (5-6) (if you want to keep combat cantrips)
Whenever you cast a cantrip, you cannot cast an additional cantrip unless you make a successful recharge roll at the start of your next turn. Roll a d6: if the result is 5 or higher, your cantrips recharge and can be used again. Your cantrips also recharge whenever you finish a short or long rest.

Maximal Upcasting (one of my favorite house-rules, period. it makes upcasting actually worth it at times!)
When you cast a spell using a higher level spell slot, any additional dice gained are considered to automatically roll the maximum possible. For example, a 3rd-level Cure Wounds would not be 3d8 + spellcasting ability modifier, but 1d8 + 16 + spellcasting ability modifier. The two additional d8s are automatically 8s, for an extra 16.

Prepared Spell Exchange (a useful feature for times when you realize you REALLY needed that certain spell)
Whenever you finish a short rest, you can exchange one spell prepared have for another spell you can prepare. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.

Spell Recovery (a powerful feature, but at a fairly high cost---your next action)
When you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action, you can use an action before the end of your next turn to attempt to recover the expended spell slot. Make a spellcasting ability check with a DC equal to 8 + double the spell slot level of the spell you just cast. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus and regain all uses when you finish a long rest.

All of these have been used in multiple groups over the last six years or so. Nerfing RAW cantrips, or removing combat cantrips entirely, is small change when you have additional spell slots (or points) available.

i wonder if the people who have issues with cantrips would continue to have issues with them if all of the damaging ones were removed? maybe a few might remain but become class features, like how eldritch blast is for warlock in 5.5(IIRC), vicious mockery for bard, sacred flame for cleric...

but if it was just ones like light, mage hand, mending.
This is also a nice way to go, but depending on how you implement it, if the "cantrip-like" feature can be used every round anyway, it doesn't change much IME.
 

For me, it's more the non-combat neverending cantrips are more troublesome than the combat ones. Guidance, Mending (whoever forgot the lessons of Cure Minor Wounds ought to be booted to the head) being the big ones.

As far as magic limit, I'd go with 3rd. I remember in the likes of 2nd edition that getting 4th level spells really changed the feel of the game.
FWIW our fix for guidance is you can only benefit from it once per rest. It keeps it useful, you can use it "once" on each party member if needed, but you can't spam it all the time.

I've never seen many other non-combat cantrips being abused? Do you have any particular experiences with them you can relate? Like how is mending really an issue?
 

FWIW our fix for guidance is you can only benefit from it once per rest. It keeps it useful, you can use it "once" on each party member if needed, but you can't spam it all the time.

I've never seen many other non-combat cantrips being abused? Do you have any particular experiences with them you can relate? Like how is mending really an issue?
mage hand has strong potential to mess with the feel of the world if you let it, since you can do all sorts of stuff safely that previously required actually touching something.
 

mage hand has strong potential to mess with the feel of the world if you let it, since you can do all sorts of stuff safely that previously required actually touching something.
I suppose, but how so? Most of the things mage hand might mess with can be dealt with in other ways IME. I guess it might trivialize a challenge, but given the limitations of the cantrip I don't see how.
 

I've never seen many other non-combat cantrips being abused? Do you have any particular experiences with them you can relate? Like how is mending really an issue?
Allowing it to heal constructs (including Autognome PCs). Also, allowing it to be more efficient and cheaper to repair a Spelljamming ship than drydocking it. :rolleyes:

Nonmagical repairs to a damaged ship can be made while the vessel is berthed. Repairing 1 hit point of damage to a berthed ship takes 1 day and costs 20 gp for materials and labor. Damage to shipboard weapons can be repaired just as quickly (1 hit point per day), but at half the cost (10 gp per hit point).


The mending spell is a cheaper, less time-consuming way to make repairs. Casting mending on a damaged ship or shipboard weapon restores a number of hit points to the target equal to 1d8 plus the spellcaster’s spellcasting ability modifier. The target can regain hit points from that spell no more than once per hour.
 

mage hand has strong potential to mess with the feel of the world if you let it, since you can do all sorts of stuff safely that previously required actually touching something.
Yeah, it becomes the door and chest opener (from 30 feet back) for one thing making door/chest traps worthless. Good for the party that's smart enough to do it, but a bit on the annoying side as a DM.
 

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