D&D (2024) 2024 Player's Handbook Reveal: Feats/Backgrounds/Species

[Horwath]

I find having a 10 or 14 Con in 5e doesn't really matter much when it comes to hit points, at low levels anything that would kill you if you had 10 Con will probably also kill you at 14 and at high levels you typically have more than enough hp and/or allies that will help you back on your feet. I mostly increase Con for other effects, such as a barbarian's unarmoured defence or if I want my wizard to have a somewhat decent chance to keep concentrating (though not even that's a given).

Maybe, maybe not, but what it is noticeable that you make work for DM harder when there is large discrepancy in CON score in the party, especially with monsters with AoE attacks.
it gets worse when low HD class has low Con and high HD class has high Con

at 5th level you can have wizard with 8 Con and barbarian with 18 Con, that is 17 vs 60 HP spread.
It's a nightmare for DMs.

so better to have "gentleman's agreement" that most will have 14 Con and outliers if they really must have different score, can get away with 12 or 16.

 

[CapnZapp]

I just played in a campaign where the Wizard player tried CON 8.

It was fun, but possibly more for the rest of us than for him

 

[cbwjm]

Maybe, maybe not, but what it is noticeable that you make work for DM harder when there is large discrepancy in CON score in the party, especially with monsters with AoE attacks.
it gets worse when low HD class has low Con and high HD class has high Con

at 5th level you can have wizard with 8 Con and barbarian with 18 Con, that is 17 vs 60 HP spread.
It's a nightmare for DMs.

so better to have "gentleman's agreement" that most will have 14 Con and outliers if they really must have different score, can get away with 12 or 16.

I'm often DM and I honestly don't care about any of that and it's also not something I think other DMs consider when I'm a player. Like, that has never come up, we just play and if you die, you die.

 

[Scott Christian]

You claim someone of noble birth "has greater learning" than an urchin, then you quote a description of the urchin background which literally says "you learned to provide for yourself." That description of the urchin calls out learning as an important milestone in the life of an urchin. And the urchin has learned something the wealthy noble may not have learned at all.

Absolutely. They learned how to provide for themselves. In context, that means food and shelter, as stated in the next few sentences. It doesn't necessarily mean learned how an airship works or how the planar magic interacts with one another. Again, top 10% in intelligence if you want them to be - at first level. By 12th, they are equal to the noble if you want them to be.

I believe the disconnect we're having involves the definition of "learning." You cite math, science, and magic as examples of things urchins would have little chance to learn*. But math, science, and magic are all part of the Arcana skill, and the Arcana skill is not a placeholder for a character's Intelligence score. A character can have 20 Intelligence without ever acquiring proficiency in Arcana.

I also cited history, religion, and nature.

An urchin can learn things that have nothing to do with Arcana, and there's no reason (other than arbitrary game rules) they shouldn't have the potential to be just as capable in their non-scholarly field of knowledge as a mathematician is in theirs. I don't see any reason to believe book learning is the only kind of life experience that hones the ability to recall and analyze knowledge.

We're in agreement. I don't see a reason either, which is why at first level they can be in the top 10% of the common population. Which is why by level 12, they are equal to their noble peers. This is about getting a head start, not an advantage for a lifetime.

But it all goes back to the racial ASI argument and the +1 that elves or dwarves or gnomes or half-orcs got. My feeling isn't that anyone on here is upset that the kid that grew up on the street isn't as learned as the noble's kid, it's that they can't make the character they want that starts with a 16.

 

[Scott Christian]

* As an aside, I've gamed with and had philosophical conversations with someone who earned a college degree in physics while living on the street, with no guaranteed place to sleep and no guaranteed source of food. As a result, there is nothing you can say to convince me a person living on the street, with no support network, cannot learn as much as a wealthy person with a private tutor. I have been shown incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.

Of course those people exist. They are called outliers. Outliers, like the street urchin that starts with a 15 intelligence and is in the top 10% of the fantasy population, can conceivably go on to enter magic school and graduate with honors. It's a common fantasy trope. We root for those characters. Heck, he's called Harry Potter. And in the beginning, he was upstaged many times by his peers who were from wealthy and educated backgrounds. That is, until he reached a higher level.

 

[MoonSong]

But my first character wa a half-elf bard in 2e.
Becauseof lore? No.
Because they could be bards and compared to humans they had better stats.
So the only reason for me to be a half elf was optimizing from the start.

You've just admitted to not care about lore? At least not in the same way as I? I think we are too far apart on this to reach an agreement.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe, maybe not, but what it is noticeable that you make work for DM harder when there is large discrepancy in CON score in the party, especially with monsters with AoE attacks.
it gets worse when low HD class has low Con and high HD class has high Con

at 5th level you can have wizard with 8 Con and barbarian with 18 Con, that is 17 vs 60 HP spread.
It's a nightmare for DMs.

so better to have "gentleman's agreement" that most will have 14 Con and outliers if they really must have different score, can get away with 12 or 16.

All of this, of course, assumes a certain attitude regarding PC mortality (or lack thereof).

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

at 5th level you can have wizard with 8 Con and barbarian with 18 Con, that is 17 vs 60 HP spread.
It's a nightmare for DMs.

Sounds like the 8 Con wizard in this scenario should play as carefully as possible. It's not a nightmare for me as the DM if someone's character gets killed.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You've just admitted to not care about lore?

Where did I say that? This was my very first character and about 30 years ago.

At least not in the same way as I?

I don't want Half-Anything being taken because of mechanical reasons. So if anyone does not care about lore it is the people who want to mix and match features. If it was just lore they wanted, they could have as much as they like.

I think we are too far apart on this to reach an agreement.

Yes. Probably. On the other hand, maybe not. As you totally misrepresented what I said.

 

[Maxperson]

background should just be roleplay ideas and what your imagination puts into your character.

leave mechanics out of it.

those are two different things.

now you will get people wanting to have some mechanics and shoveling through backgrounds to find what applies to their vision of the character and probably has nothing with actual roleplaying background they want for their character.

First, you could always ask the DM for different stats and skills for reasons you present. Many DMs will work with you and accept alternatives that make sense, similar to how skills can use alternative stats.

Second, bonuses mean very little, so if your fighter wants a background for story reasons that gives bonuses to int, wis and cha, take it anyway. You won't lose anything that matters and you'll have your background that meets your vision.

Third, you can still write a background that meets your vision. If you wanted your fighter to be a hermit(no idea if this exists), but hermits get mental stat bonuses, pick the soldier background(no idea if this exists) and write a background about how you got disillusioned with being a soldier and went off to live in a cave for 10 years.