D&D General 5.5 and making the game easier for players and harder for DMs

[payn]

Are you really? Trying, that is.

Look, if you don't want to see the difference between the risk of PC death and actual PC death, just say so and this discussion is over.

The complaints about D&D isn't "my player characters aren't dying".
The complaints about D&D is "I need to work unreasonably hard to create even the threat of death".

In OSR, you never feel untouchable in the way D&D can make you feel. Maybe try it before you dismiss it, hmm?

FFS I play OSR all the time. I also play 5E pf2 and am able to challenge my players just fine. Sounds like it’s you that needs some 5E experience.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There’s a whole video there (and some text) about how WotC seems to want to make running the game harder for the DM. Which has nothing to do with “5th ed is easy”.

Examples: Having more status effects to keep track of.

You (and others) might give the original post a re-read.

I have heard this "more status effects" argument. And, well... I'm not convinced. I've seen an awful lot of status effects dropped by a full mage party. What is different between a fighter hitting four enemies and slowing them down and a Warlock using Eldritch Blast and Lance of Lethargy to do the same? Okay, a barbarian might be able to throw someone 25 ft and chase after them... that doesn't require a bunch of tracking.

Sap causing disadvantage? Vicious Mockery.
Knocking people prone? Trip was always an action you could take, it is just a save instead of a roll off now.

So, if you had the "wrong" party before, you were dealing with the exact same status effects. Now just more people can do them. Which is no harder on DMs as a whole than how it was previously. Add, also... rely on your players. Players, be honest and help your DMs. I know I get some friendly flak every so often when I remind the DM of an effect or something that hurts the party, but I do that in part because I as a player will also keep track of statuses on the enemies and remind the DM of them. If everyone is sharing that burden of status effects, it becomes a lot less on the DM's shoulders.

 

[Chaosmancer]

so every monster needs truesight now, great… why not simply not give such an ability to a class instead

Yeah, how dare they make invisbility an option for classes. Why, it is like they expect a spell to keep them invisible for an entire minute, I mean, who has ever run Greater Invisibility, right?

Also, the 2014 Fey Warlock had misty escape, 1/SR they could teleport and turn invisible in reaction to an attack. Looking at playtest 7 the literal only difference between the abilities is that instead of being 1/SR, it is now casting Misty Step as a reaction. Which, if discussion on the Paladin is to be believed, means that it is an utter trash fire level of ability, because it is a spell now and can be counterspelled, silenced, anti-magicked, ect.

So... they can do something they could do before, only more often, and as part of a more cohesive package... while still having access to all of the invibility options they had before.... how is this an issue again?

 

[Distracted DM]

Not sure what to say when I read things like this. I have never had difficulty challenging PCs at any level. The last fight for my previous campaign I came close to perma-killing one PC, had others in single digits at times. They were all level 20 and because of other constraints on time (one player was going to be moving) I hadn't worn them down as much as I wanted. Game or two before, I almost killed 2 PCs in what i thought was going to be a moderately difficult fight.

I have no magic formula, I don't fudge rolls one way or another, theoretically we're using basically the same rules, it wasn't a triple deadly fight according to my calculations. I do increase the number of legendary saves and actions to number if players in the party minus one. I also adjust monsters here and there.

The good news is that they acknowledge the issue and are taking steps including more high level monsters. But challenging high level PCs has been possible in every edition of the game.

I have character deaths. I have close calls.

I think you overlooked the parts of my comment that I considered necessary to the point, I probably should've bolded them or expanded on them

1. "Appropriate-CR" monsters are a pushover for high level characters. The Pit Fiends, generals of hell, have +14 to hit; one character had 35 AC, the other was in the high-20s. Even if they were hit, they had lots of ways to negate or avoid those hits. The two characters, between them, could easily weather and restore themselves from anything the pit fiend or devils could actually do to them. Those two characters probably could've handled an Ancient Blue without any real chance of danger. TWO characters, not even a party of four :')

2. that it's difficult to challenge high-level characters without turning your setting on its head. This is setting-dependent I guess, and it really just reinforces the other bits I said: I don't like running high level 5e, because to appropriately challenge a tier 4 party you need to be essentially exhausting your setting of its most powerful beings. In 5e (as compared to other editions I've run), the PC power has gone up, and the monster power has come down. Even through the 5e's lifetime, you can see that monsters have become easier for their CR. Look at the CR 30 Tiamat from Rise of Tiamat, vs the CR30 Aspect of Tiamat from Fizban's. The Aspect is a pushover, but it's still CR30. The "Great Wyrms" from the same book, are likewise pushovers for their CR. It isn't just that book, you can go look at the Vecna adventure to see more examples of "the most deadly foes" that are basically just feel-good beat'em-ups.

 

[Malmuria]

Which is no harder on DMs as a whole than how it was previously.

For a lot of people post-Tasha's 5e was already too bloated and complicated. 5.5 seems to incorporating some of those additions to the base game plus adding new stuff.

rely on your players

Rules adjudication is going to end up in the DM's lap. It will vary by table, but there are a lot of casual tables out there where the players don't fully understand even their own abilities.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Actually I find it is more difficult to run many creatures and remember their positioning than adding a status effect.
I just write them down next to initative.

Yeah, honestly, the part of DMing that always slows me down the most and is the most aggravating to deal with... is HP when dealing with a large group of monsters. Remembering which orc is Orc #4 and subtracting the damage is the part I mess up the most and is the hardest. Status effects are usually a bit easier. "Oh, this guy can't do this thing"

 

[Charlaquin]

I edited the original post, but the DM stuff I was referring to is an increase in bookkeeping (due to all the new powers and status effects they cause etc) for the DM that even WotC gleefully acknowledges.

Ah, ok, that’s a pretty different case than it originally sounded like you were making. And, in general terms, sure, I imagine the revised rules will have more of that kind of stuff to track than the pre-revision rules did. From what we’ve seen so far it still seems plenty manageable to me. I mean, it’s still far less to manage than 4e had, and much less than 3e had.

 

[Chaltab]

I ignorantly allowed Full ASI AND Feat each relevant level in my first 5E game as a DM... and I still manage to threaten the party in most encounters. I definitely see where concerns of increased mental load are coming from but I'm not getting the sense PCs will be too strong. With the paladin nerfs and hopefully good changes to monsters and spells,

 

[Remathilis]

Yup. Two very different things.

50% of the PHB is 50% of the PHB, doesn't matter how you slice it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Like I said even WotC mentions the increase. Plus as Sly points out a higher level fighter can get 8 attacks around and knocking enemies prone. Add in all the other stuff like new special Rogue abilties and new Warlock abilties etc. It's just MORE.

How is a 20th level fighter using Action surge and knocking 8 enemies prone any different from a 17th level paladin casting Destructive Wave and knocking 8 enemies prone? Or a 5th level wizard casting Tidal wave and knocking 8 enemies prone?

A rogue now has a poison ability? How is this different from a rogue getting poison and putting it on their arrows?

Heck, most of the warlock abilities are not even actually new.