D&D General On Early D&D and Problematic Faves: How to Grapple with the Sins of the Past

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm in the same boat in that I don't mind if slavers are in the game provided they're bad guys. But every time this topic comes up, there are those who argue it's very inclusion should not be in the game no matter the context.

They always seem to be arguing on behalf of people not present in the thread, though.

I think there's a group of folks who've convinced themselves that there's a giant invisible group that doesn't want to fight villainous slavers, more than there actually being a major constituency that feels that way.

Killing those folks in BG3, incidentally, felt extremely righteous.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think there's a group of folks who've convinced themselves that there's a giant invisible group that doesn't want to fight villainous slavers, more than there actually being a major constituency that feels that way.

Likewise. I think a cause of confusion is that there are a couple of themes many won't use like sexual violence. And e.g. it would mess up a game to drop spiders on the character of a player too scared of them.

But I think slavers are more popular than they used to be as bad guys. They are actively doing evil by being slavers in ways orcs aren't by being orcs so you can kill them pretty freely.

 

[dbolack]

But I think slavers are more popular than they used to be as bad guys. They are actively doing evil by being slavers in ways orcs aren't by being orcs so you can kill them pretty freely.

I would argue that - from a use perspective - slavers to fantasy what Nazis are to recent through near future games.

I also think, regarding tolerance of problematic issues, we all have differing levels of tolerance based on the medium for a variety of reasons that I lack the skill to put into words. I presume there is an audience component to it.

 

[Pandion73]

Why does it seem like the same people post and repost and then post some more on these forums?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I just have to say this, because it’s a pretty directly relevant topic to me: it’s fine to enjoy Harry Potter. The books and the movies, on their own, are pretty harmless, and what media you choose to engage with is none of my business. But, if you consider yourself an ally to trans people, please, please do not spend money on Harry Potter media or merchandise, unless it’s secondhand. A not -insignificant portion of that money does make its way to J.K. Rowling, and she does spend her money to influence policy in ways that are directly harmful to us. It also just sends a really unfavorable message to us, that so many people want to call themselves allies, but then when it comes down to it will still spend money in a way that is actively harmful to us if it happens to be tied to a media franchise they enjoy. This particular issue isn’t just a question of if it’s ok to like art by a problematic creator, money spent on this particular art actually funds a currently-ongoing hate campaign. And unfortunately no, Joanne’s bigotry did not culminate in her transphobic murder mystery novel, she has done and continues to do far more damaging things than that.

I am happy I already own the books and movies. They're all good stuff, but I don't think I could buy them new in the specific context. Not necessarily how I feel about all "problematic" content, but in this case...

 

[Reynard]

Why does it seem like the same people post and repost and then post some more on these forums?

I don't understand the question. It's a discussion forum. What are folks supposed to do?

 

[Krachek]

Sins of the past will get more numerous as we now record everything and link everyone.
I predict more sinners and more sins.

 

[Charlaquin]

I am happy I already own the books and movies. They're all good stuff, but I don't think I could buy them new in the specific context. Not necessarily how I feel about all "problematic" content, but in this case...

Yeah, it’s rather a different case because it’s not just a matter of the media itself being problematic (and again, I think HP is mostly harmless… the goblins are a smidge iffy and defense of slavery is bizarre, but it’s pretty low-key, and nothing I would be uncomfortable with my own kids reading if I had any). It’s a matter of where the profits are being directed.

 

[Professor Murder]

So just to throw in my stance on this issue, specifically "death of the author."

It's easier when they are actually dead.

HPL is dead. He died a long time ago. He has no living descendants who profit off his work. Now, people who are down for his racist/sexist/classist/ect beliefs, ones which are present in not just his personal life but his work, may find comfort in his work and that does suck. But he is dead. So he, as a person, doesn't get anything out of engaging with his work. Engage honestly. If you can acknowledge what was terrible about him, (For G-d's sake, the man wrote racist poetry. That is a commitment to bigotry), examine it honestly, then there is a place to use and appreciate the "good" aspects of his contributions to culture.

JKR is alive. She's an active public figure and still creating new works of writing. She uses not only her platform but her fortune granted by her work to forward her bigotry. So it is harder to engage with her work or the vast media empire it has spawned without feeling like you are in some small way contributing to the ongoing harm she is actively inflicting on a vulnerable class of people. Now some people can square that circle. 3rd party unlicensed creations on say Etsy. Actively engaging in pastiche or parody of the world she has created. And for some, well you just can't shine a turd and it's better to walk away. YMMV. But as long as she is here and actively engaging eagerly in bigotry, it's going to be an issue.

Gary Gygax is dead. He held bigoted beliefs. His real crime for me is his desire to keep the joy of what he created from people who didn't fit his expectations. He was an intelligent man who mistook that for wisdom, much like HPL, by being achingly parochial. His work remains. And like HPL, I do think you can engage with it if you do so honestly.

Don't be afraid.

 

[Older Beholder]

Second I find Gygax a more challenging case than Lovecraft. Mostly because as I said in the other thread one of the things D&D is is a work of moral philosophy. I believe more people have spent more time and effort engaging with nine point alignment than they have Socrates, Descartes, Nietzsche, and Ayn Rand combined.

I think you may be underestimating Socrates, Descartes and Nietzsche.