D&D General Race Has No Mechanics. What do you play?

[Lanefan]

Yeah, no, we disagree on what narrative is.

So where in your estimation does narrative stop and mechanics begin?

 

[Aldarc]

So where in your estimation does narrative stop and mechanics begin?

How about you answer that question first?

 

[Corinnguard]

The problem arises when you then allow PC-playable species that come with baked-in mechanical benefits simply due to what they are: changeling (disguise ability) and aarakocra* (flight) being two fairly obvious examples...or which come with baked-in penalties simply due to what they are e.g. centaur (can't climb, can't fit in places).

* - how the frikkety-frak is that spelled anyway? No matter how I type it, it still looks wrong.

You got it right. It is Aarakocra. Pronouncing Aarakocra otoh is a different story.

 

[KYRON45]

Yes, that seems to be the intent.

The problem arises when you then allow PC-playable species that come with baked-in mechanical benefits simply due to what they are: changeling (disguise ability) and aarakocra* (flight) being two fairly obvious examples...or which come with baked-in penalties simply due to what they are e.g. centaur (can't climb, can't fit in places).

* - how the frikkety-frak is that spelled anyway? No matter how I type it, it still looks wrong.

Right. So the OP is asking you....would you pick either the bird person (spelling really is hard) or the centaur if they didn't come with racial bonuses like flying or countless hours of satisfying hoof trimming videos?

 

[Corinnguard]

Right. So the OP is asking you....would you pick either the bird person (spelling really is hard) or the centaur if they didn't come with racial bonuses like flying or countless hours of satisfying hoof trimming videos?

I would pick the bird person over the centaur. I don't want to get too side-tracked about the latter's internal anatomy.

 

[KYRON45]

So where in your estimation does narrative stop and mechanics begin?

DM: here is a thing to interact with.
PC: I would like to interact in the following way.
DM: I'm listening.
PC: (insert lengthy overly complicated Rube Goldberg/Scooby Doo plan here)
DM: That sounds pretty funny/creative and possibly something we will laugh about and a story to retell for years to come. And most importantly since it doesn't affect things in any long lasting or dramatic way i say, kudos to you fellow gamer.

So in short my answer to this line of thought is...The DM decides if mechanics are needed. Now obviously the rules lawyers and min maxers are going to adamantly explain how I am wrong...and that's ok. D&D is a big tent and there is room for all.

I could go into this thought process in more depth but its 7:15am and I could use some coffee.

 

[Bluenose]

So there is no value to the lore and other non mechanical aspects of that choice?

That's something that would matter a lot more to me than whether a race has different mechanics. Whether that's practical in a game where there isn't a "One True Setting" is a different issue, and probably makes in impractical to deliver in a core rulebook. All elves everywhere being culturally the same would be just as disappointing as elves being only different from humans cosmetically.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I would pick the bird person over the centaur. I don't want to get too side-tracked about the latter's internal anatomy.

i think the question is meant to be would you pick them over a basic human if all three play exactly the same having no impact on play? everything is the same medium creature with no traits just a different skin.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

You got it right. It is Aarakocra. Pronouncing Aarakocra otoh is a different story.

I'm super bad at spelling those bird-people. I take responsibility for starting that part of the conversation.

So where in your estimation does narrative stop and mechanics begin?

I kind of feel like this is a whole tangent on the entire thread. It will be long. And then we can agree to disagree if we need.

First:

DM: here is a thing to interact with.
PC: I would like to interact in the following way.
DM: I'm listening.
PC: (insert lengthy overly complicated Rube Goldberg/Scooby Doo plan here)
DM: That sounds pretty funny/creative and possibly something we will laugh about and a story to retell for years to come. And most importantly since it doesn't affect things in any long lasting or dramatic way i say, kudos to you fellow gamer.

So in short my answer to this line of thought is...The DM decides if mechanics are needed. Now obviously the rules lawyers and min maxers are going to adamantly explain how I am wrong...and that's ok. D&D is a big tent and there is room for all.

I could go into this thought process in more depth but its 7:15am and I could use some coffee.

To me, It's not this. PS, I'm drinking my coffee right now.

To me, Narrative is all the assumptions made based on the story, overarching themes and history in the specific campaign.

Going back to your example of an elf being allowed to see the Elf-King. This is not "auto-success". The fiction has already established that elves can get an audience based on the background and history of the world where the game takes place. Calling it an auto-success isn't appropriate because there's no challenge.

To compare: Instead of one elf walking in to see the Elf-King, let's call it 4 elves walking into a bar.

Would you say that these 4 elves auto-succeeded their strength saves to open the door and auto succeeded their balance checks to cross the threshold and auto-succeeded their persuasion checks to order a drink? Because that's what you're telling me with the Elf-King example.

To me, the fiction establishes that this Inn is a public space open to all travelers who may enter and order drinks. The story dictates the assumption we make as players.

The story might suggest that Elves are, generally, smarter than humans. That assumption will affect the narrative because it might make many elves look down on humans. It might mean that libraries are more likely to hire elves than orcs. This assumption might create racial tension. It doesn't care if the game gives the elf race a +2 INT. They don't even NEED to have a bonus to INT for these racial assumptions to be true. The Narrative dictates the assumptions based on the campaign world.

So, where do mechanics come in?

Going back to Elves being smart, mechanics don't concern itself with the attitudes of NPCs. NPCs are going to assume elves are smart regardless of stat bonuses because in-world story has already established this. Giving elves a +2 INT will give elves a slight advantage when making knowledge checks. It deals with mechanics of dice rolls. It's appropriate given the fiction, obviously, but not necessary.

Going back to the 4 elves walking into the bar. If one happens to be a half-elf and the Innkeeper is an elf who is a racist jerk who happens to think half-breeds are filthy pigs - the half-elf might have to make a persuasion check to get a room for the night, the half-elf would have to convince the barkeep he can stay. He will have to roll persuasion (mechanic). But just because one guy has to roll a dice, doesn't mean the other 4 auto-succeeded. Unless we agree that everyone always auto-succeeds balance checks to walk across the room without falling. (which I don't)

-The narrative established that the Inn is open to the public
-The narrative established that 3 elves and a half-elf walked into a bar
-The narrative established that the Innkeeper is racist because he thinks elves are smarter and better than humans

Without mechanics, the narrative dictates that the half-elf will have to find a different place to stay the night, therefore:

-The half-elf has to roll to be able to stay at the Inn (mechanic which will change the current direction of the narrative). He's got a pretty good chance because Half-Elves also happen to get a +2 to Charisma (mechanic)

Edit: (I think)to boil it down to a couple lines: mechanics only come into play when the assumptions of the narrative are being challenged. In the act of challenging the outcome of the story, sometimes the mechanics reinforce narrative assumptions. (IE: elves are smart and, therefore, get +2 INT)

 

[DEFCON 1]

There's a whole series of ancestry books on Drivethru that say you're wrong.

Well, don't bother telling me... tell @HaroldTheHobbit about these products that are what they were looking for. They're the one you should be passing on your knowledge to because they're the one who actually would appreciate it.