D&D Historian Benn Riggs On Gary Gygax & Sexism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Screenshot 2024-07-08 at 23.21.58.png


The recent book The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons 1970-1977 talks about the early years of D&D. In the book, authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro talk about the way the game, and its writers, approached certain issues. Not surprisingly, this revelation received aggressive "pushback" on social media because, well, that sort of thing does--in fact, one designer who worked with Gygax at the time labelled it "slanderous".

D&D historian Ben Riggs--author of Slaying the Dragon--delved into the facts. Note that the below was posted on Twitter, in that format, not as an article.

D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy.

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials.

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizard’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:"These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

GR9iKUjWsAAete8.jpeg

It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.)

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny.

(I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.)

Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D. Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D.

The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”


GR9iGsAW0AAmAOw.jpeg

The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response.

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said:“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth."

GR9iyo3XwAAQCtk.jpeg


"I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’...and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room."

"They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”


So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases...

Part 2: D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy....it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.

How? Let me show you.The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent...

...the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden ...

find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game we love? We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no **** and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is naughty word on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you.

I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know **** when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all…

We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them?

Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them. Or maybe when someone tells you there is **** on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on.

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like...

“Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.”

Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG. And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.

Appendix 1: Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D.

But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time.

GR9lAHtaQAANLyb.jpeg




Look, folks, we know how a conversation like this goes on the internet. Because, internet. Read the rules you agreed to before replying. The banhammer will be used on those who don't do what they agreed to.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I am not defending anything. I don’t have a schtick.

Just intellectually dishonest to take history without context and suggest it was so bad that it was not partially a product of different norms.

I play the game with my daughters so I am not pining for less respect for women. Just responding to zard’s comment.

Carry on.

And it's intellectually dishonest to not review the evidence we have. The "it was a different time" idea has been argued already and it's played out as an excuse. We have what he said at the time and we even have people talking about how his views beyond what the community felt comfortable with.

People are also cherry picking those people who did say something. OD&D didn't sell very well but it wasn't because of the sexism. Once1E blew up elements of it were right there in the books vs an obscure interview.

I'm sorry, but you're making up a new argument (people saying OD&D didn't sell because of sexism) while missing the point of the interview (Gary stating that he's gotten pushback and declaring himself a sexist).

More context when I started playing Gary was just a name on a book. Barely knew 2E existed (we used 80s stuff we found). Didn't know what a fanzibe was, the differences between 1E,2E, B/X or anything older than 1E. Didn't know about Dragon or Dungeon magazines, didn't even have a 1E phb.

Had to figure out what a class was via OA and UA. Basically I'm not a fan of Garry's D&D.

Okay, but this doesn't relate at all to the topic at hand other than kind of just random filibustering.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Revenge of the Nerds is a horrible, sexist, racist, homophobic, and frankly disturbing comedy.

Now tell me which of the characters proudly proclaimed themselves to be a Sexist before going on a rant about women being weak and sexual objects rather than people.

Sexist attitudes exist even to the modern day. But it takes a PARTICULAR kind of person to get called out, double down, and proudly proclaim themself to be a bigot.

That's not normal now, it wasn't normal 10 years ago, it wasn't normal 30 years ago, it wasn't normal 100 years ago. That's not "Average Normal Sexism for the 70s." It's something above and beyond. Implicit sexism? Common. Explicit sexism? Rare.

Perhaps. I suspect Gary's opinion wasn't tgat uncommon he just expressed it.

I've heard a lot worse long after Gary sad it. It really depends on the social circles one moves on.

Less than 10 years ago I was at a port doing paperwork. Opposing gang members, Russian boat crew, and a shed where they would go behind "to sort any differences".

It's still out there people are just hiding it except social media.
 

And it's intellectually dishonest to not review the evidence we have. The "it was a different time" idea has been argued already and it's played out as an excuse. We have what he said at the time and we even have people talking about how his views beyond what the community felt comfortable with.



I'm sorry, but you're making up a new argument (people saying OD&D didn't sell because of sexism) while missing the point of the interview (Gary stating that he's gotten pushback and declaring himself a sexist).



Okay, but this doesn't relate at all to the topic at hand other than kind of just random filibustering.

So you can't even comprehend that things were different in the 1970s?

This is literally one of the first things they tell you at university in things like history and classics.

I'm also saying it's a lot more common now than what people realize. This is not an endorsement, defense or otherwise. I'll even tell you where you'll find it.

You can sit in an ivory tower and go tsk tsk tsk all you like. All I'm saying I imagine it's a lot worse in the 1970s (well I know it was worse ymmv).
 

Does that make sense?
Okay, I appreciate your laying it out clearly for me. And maybe you'll be glad to know that I actually don't see things the way you describe them. Let me see if I can lay it out in a way that makes sense, I'm going to go back to the numerical version we were using upthread rather than using the letters. Hopefully that will help make things clearer.

You say that I think "most everyone was sexist" in the 1970s. I don't think this. I've been pretty consistent throughout the thread in saying that I think there was a wide variety of opinions battling it out during that decade. There were indeed lots of people who were actively working against sexism (call them 0% on the sexism scale), but they didn't yet have the social power to discourage those who were sexist from expressing their sexist opinions.

(As a side musing, does Gygax belong at Z, or on the numerical scale, 100%? I'm inclined to save that for someone who thinks women should be literal property or don't have souls, or something of that nature--opinions that were too far out to be part of mainstream discourse in the 1970s. To my knowledge, Gygax never went there, but please correct me if I'm wrong. So I'd like to leave a little bit of space on the far side of him. I'll call him 80% sexist.)

So in the 1970s, you have people at 0% and people at 80% and everyone in between, all arguing it out with each other. In this environment, opinions between 0 and 80 can be openly stated without severe social consequences. I've already given my definition of severe social consequences as those that actively harm a person's business or social life, not just getting into arguments with those who disagree. My definition of an outlier is someone who holds an opinion that cannot be stated without those severe social consequences. Someone who was at 80% was very close to being an outlier in the 1970s, but not quite there.

That puts the median level of sexism for the 1970s at 40%, but it doesn't mean that the majority of people then were exactly 40% sexist--just that if you picked a random person, you'd have roughly equal chances them falling anywhere on the scale between 0 and 80. Hopefully that answers your question as to "why were they not all equally openly sexist at all times?"

You also characterized my position as "everyone was sexist and no one pushed back." Hopefully the above helps explain why that's not actually my position. I don't believe everyone in the 1970s was sexist--it's just that sexists and anti-sexists were all shouting their opinions in the same marketplace. Of course there were people who pushed back; they just didn't yet have the social power (yet) to do much more than argue.

Gygax was still at the 80% level in the 1970s. At that time, he fell at the far edge of the area between the median level and the level that would invoke severe social punishment. But since he never quite tipped into the "severe social punishment" zone, he still enjoyed the benefits of falling within the spectrum of mainstream social discourse at the time. Nowadays, of course, the spectrum has narrowed considerably and 80% would absolutely provoke severe social repercussions.

I hope that clears up the difference between that and me claiming he was at 40%, or what you called "X" level. It has never been my position that he was at the median level of 1970s society, only that he managed to stay out of the "severe social punishment" level at that time. Thus, I want to state clearly that it is not my intention to reduce him to "X level" or to say that everything above 40% can/should be excused.
 

Perhaps. I suspect Gary's opinion wasn't tgat uncommon he just expressed it.

Alternatively beyond your speculation we have people saying they were uncomfortable with it at the time combined with the fact that it got enough of a reaction from a small community of people that Gary felt he needed to actually say something. Like, we don't need your speculation because have things that are much firmer to go on, and the fact that one side in this discussion really has to rely only on their speculation really shows the difference in the strength of arguments at play here.

I've heard a lot worse long after Gary sad it. It really depends on the social circles one moves on.

Oh s***, this absolves Gary of everything. WRAP IT UP, PEOPLE, SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING WORSE MORE RECENTLY!

I don't even know how to address this defense other than to say "No, someone saying something worse more recently doesn't really have any effect on what someone said in the past or the context of those remarks."

Less than 10 years ago I was at a port doing paperwork. Opposing gang members, Russian boat crew, and a shed where they would go behind "to sort any differences".

It's still out there people are just hiding it except social media.

maxresdefault.jpg


So you can't even comprehend that things were different in the 1970s?

I didn't say that, either, so please stop making up strawmen. The 70's could be more sexist and even by those standards Gary could still be out of line. Those are not mutually exclusive and seem to actually be fairly likely given what has been brought up in this thread.

This is literally one of the first things they tell you at university in things like history and classics.

Sure, but they also tell you not to rely on the "it was a different time" stuff as much because, often times, that stuff is more of a political defense by people today rather than applicable then. There are plenty of modern instances where pundits bring this up that, when put under scrutiny, it's clear that people are simply putting their own idea of the past to try and absolve the figure of some level of responsibility rather than being supported by the evidence.

This would also seem to be one of those instances.

I'm also saying it's a lot more common now than what people realize. This is not an endorsement, defense or otherwise. I'll even tell you where you'll find it.

Buddy, you keep saying these things that are not mutually exclusive and acting like they are. Just because the 70's were more sexist doesn't mean Gary's stuff was still okay even back then, and we have stuff in this thread (which you don't seem to have looked at) which seems to indicate that his beliefs were out of line even at the time. The idea that the 70's isn't a silver bullet; in fact, it kind of goes to show how particularly bad Gary's views on it were given that he managed to get pushback on it even then.

You can sit in an ivory tower and go tsk tsk tsk all you like. All I'm saying I imagine it's a lot worse in the 1970s (well I know it was worse ymmv).

And I'm saying your argument is predicated on a bunch of things being mutually exclusive when they aren't, and largely based on personal speculation rather than what we have on hand.
 
Last edited:



no one said Gary was peak a-hole, unsurpassed to this day

I'm aware. Main point is if people still say that now it wouhd have been a lot worse then.

All I'm saying is people are severely over estimating the degree of Garry's comments. Alot was swept under the ru or behind closed doors.

People here are saying that if you xan find anyone in various tine frame that match up with modern views they were right.

From a moral argument maybe. Doesn't mean the rest of society followed those people.

If my argument is wrong there's plenty of other legacy media available which gives you an idea of what was actually acceptable. Sure you'll find detractors. I used revenge of the nerds as an example. There's plenty of more however and there's other examples and Hollywood was notorious for the casting couch. And Woody Allen.

No one's claiming it's right but it as common enough. 80s in a way was worse because raunchy comedies became more common post 1975. Older movies might have various offensive tropes depicted but weren't trying to shove it in your face like those movies (RotN, Police Academy, Animal House etc).

If it wasn't more acceptable then how cone those mass media items got made? Over Sci fi is also full of it and D&D cheesecake art was far from the only examples.

On the scale of reactionary stupid crap Gary the diet coke of it. Look at old Sci fi covers, fantasy, western movies, shows Asterix and Obleix, cartoons, toys.


That's the main point. Yes it was offensive ultimately most of it faded away outside of satire or other countries. I wasn't offensive enough not to get made is the big point. A liberal movie in 1990 (Dances with Wolves) is tomorrow's white savior trope and Forrest Gump is tomorrow's boomer fantasy Disneyland.

My country got to the 1960s (think pre war or 19th century) a lot earlier than the USA. Problem was it stayed there until the mid 1980's.
 
Last edited:

Perhaps, but my counter to that is that maybe this shouldn't be a PG-13 rated game.

I've never liked that D&D markets itself to kids, mostly because doing so forces too much sanitization (even more so when the core target audience is in sexually-repressed America); I'd rather the core target audience be the college-age crowd and that the game be written to that level. Then you can have random tables for all sorts of offbeat things of which "harlots" (of any gender) would be but one.

They could then do a PG-13 or even G rated sub-version for kids.

Not going to get into “should be” hypotheticals. It IS a PG rated game and thus not having a random harlot table makes sense.

I’d much rather talk about how things are rather than how I might wish they were. There’s more than enough of that in this thread.
 

Perhaps, but my counter to that is that maybe this shouldn't be a PG-13 rated game.

I've never liked that D&D markets itself to kids, mostly because doing so forces too much sanitization (even more so when the core target audience is in sexually-repressed America); I'd rather the core target audience be the college-age crowd and that the game be written to that level. Then you can have random tables for all sorts of offbeat things of which "harlots" (of any gender) would be but one.

They could then do a PG-13 or even G rated sub-version for kids.
The 1973 rough draft for OD&D, which I have read thanks to the new WotC collection, states that D&D is a game for 12 and older.

D&D has always been a family game (and no doubt thar won'tbe changing), even before there was a harlot table. That us one of the big problems with the same guy who wrote "12+" also making the harlot table years later.
 
Last edited:

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Remove ads

Top