D&D Historian Benn Riggs On Gary Gygax & Sexism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Screenshot 2024-07-08 at 23.21.58.png


The recent book The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons 1970-1977 talks about the early years of D&D. In the book, authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro talk about the way the game, and its writers, approached certain issues. Not surprisingly, this revelation received aggressive "pushback" on social media because, well, that sort of thing does--in fact, one designer who worked with Gygax at the time labelled it "slanderous".

D&D historian Ben Riggs--author of Slaying the Dragon--delved into the facts. Note that the below was posted on Twitter, in that format, not as an article.

D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy.

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials.

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizard’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:"These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

GR9iKUjWsAAete8.jpeg

It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.)

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny.

(I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.)

Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D. Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D.

The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”


GR9iGsAW0AAmAOw.jpeg

The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response.

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said:“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth."

GR9iyo3XwAAQCtk.jpeg


"I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’...and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room."

"They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”


So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases...

Part 2: D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy....it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.

How? Let me show you.The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent...

...the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden ...

find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game we love? We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no **** and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is naughty word on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you.

I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know **** when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all…

We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them?

Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them. Or maybe when someone tells you there is **** on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on.

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like...

“Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.”

Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG. And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.

Appendix 1: Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D.

But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time.

GR9lAHtaQAANLyb.jpeg




Look, folks, we know how a conversation like this goes on the internet. Because, internet. Read the rules you agreed to before replying. The banhammer will be used on those who don't do what they agreed to.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

By blowback I meant financially or in any significant way.

That blowback was essentially people disagreeing o firms.

People calling him out for his behavior is absolutely the definition of "blowback". Trying to restrict it to something financial is utterly inane. Most controversies don't reach that sort of level to begin with, but that doesn't mean they aren't controversies.

You're going to get blowback regardless. On any topic. Put 7 humans in a room you will get 8 opinions.

If this were the case, then nothing would be controversial because no one would agree on anything. You keep putting this weird, overly-broad definitions to everything and they aren't really helping your argument.

The fact of the matter is that Gary got called out on his antics, enough so that he felt compelled to actually talk and complain about it in an interview and proudly declare himself a sexist.

Compare with Ernie firing hus mouth off. Except Ernie also combined that with being an incapable sad sack.

I won't compare because I don't need to make comparisons. There's no point to because I can actually directly reference the topic, which is something you seem to be unable to do.

Gary said that in the 70s faced no significant blowback. Hell he said similar things gets I don't recall if he got a ban over it.

Did he say that? When did he say that? Because the interview he complains about a bunch of people apparently complaining about him, which is blowback. Fun fact: people with bad opinions can romanticize the past, too. In fact, we have a lot of people who will do it for them, apparently.

And once again no one's claiming Gary was right in the 70s it's more things were different that's all.

You keep saying this, and we keep telling you that we have people saying differently. The fact that you keep going back to this like it's some sort of magic cure-all is baffling.

Claiming things were woukd be somewhere between disingenuous and pseudo history imho.

That's great, but I don't think you are as informed on the topic as you think you are and given what has been presented in this thread I'd say you're wrong unless you are going to provide actual proof and not try to simply reference other, different problematic content that isn't problematic in the same way.

Thought experiment. I'm not a boomer as such but some sort of collapse coukd happen. Combine that with a cultural shift. We are already speed running the 1920s again but say we return to those views in the bext 50 years.

Are our views here wrong or different?

Same collapse but it goes another way and they look back on us in 50 years. Mass consumerism, buying D&D books off Anazon, empowering Bezos, Hasbro and Elon Musk. Are we wrong or different?

SenXu5LcNh2oupBH030Qn3VMhb2ZxvEtiQ9BrPoLEGg.webp


Your thought experiment is unnecessary. We have stuff we can reference. That you clearly don't want to reference it tells me the strength of your argument.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Nope he was a sexist it's right there in black and white. I did say I'm not a fan of his D&D either.

1E has gender based ability maximum in it. I wouldn't include stuff like that in any rpg I would hypothetically design. Olympic Powerlifting the RPG might be an exception but I wouldn't design or buy such an RPG anyway.

I'm not going to go set fire to my copy of the DMG 1E or Tacitus either though.

Thankfully I didn't buy Michael Jackson or JK Rowling material. Dodged a bullet there.

Cool. I'm not a fan of 1e DnD for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with his sexism. I am also not going to set fire to my copies of DnD.

So what's the problem? Why are you so determined to set the standard at "how did the culture at large around him react" when it doesn't matter? He could have had his entire business destroyed because of it, he could have received a presidential medal for his statements. Neither would change that he was a sexist, so why should we care?
 

1*d185e9zg_MikBOr50a1ukA.jpeg

1975 group. 3 women out of 26 players.

Considering how sexist Gygax and some others were, and the fact that he publicly stated he'd bend to "Women's Libbers" once a single woman bought a set of rules...

The idea that women weren't playing from the start might be more fiction and self-fulfilling prophecy as the women who showed up were often driven away.

"But they have the same last name! They must be wives, sisters, daughters, not women interested in it on their own!"
1*Ccq7RVLSk-ZALJpcSCcj3A.jpeg

Taking down the notes and later typing them up as full reports for the group requires more interest than someone being patiently indulgent while their spouse plays a game and tossing a few dice to avoid boredom.

And by the time Alarums and Excursions started coming out in '75, people were already asking to use "Adeptress" instead of "Adept" for 2nd level wizard women and proposing "Matriarch" be used where "Patriarch" already was, as well.

Anyone remember Tunnels and Trolls coming out in 1975 with gender inclusive language? 'Cause it did. “Brave men and women arm themselves and venture within the tunnels at risk of body and soul to seek treasure and experience.”

Put simply: Women were around since the beginning. And people of every gender went "Everything being dudes-only in the text sucks, we should include women" since the beginning. There were also a lot of dudes playing female characters who disliked that. And of course -lots- of closeted trans women, because OBVIOUSLY.

In point of fact, when Lakofka put together a system of "Beauty" for the game which gave women such incredible powers as the "Seduction" spell which could only be cast by women with a beauty score of 15 or higher on male characters. Or "Horrid Beauty" where women with low Beauty scores could terrify men to literal death. The response was... less than kind. Especially since Kask put it in Dragon Magazine, tacitly endorsing the system.

1*D5PAWCot12JG5MMmY80q4g.jpeg

Lakofka challenged "Anyone" to write a better version of his system that would include women without being insulting. Janell Jaquays, printing under the name Paul at the time, immediately rose to the challenge in Dungeoneer, and then became one of the greats for writing and designing.

So... Yeah.

There was pushback on the sexism. There were women gamers from the start. The revisionism is annoying.
 



There was pushback on the sexism. There were women gamers from the start. The revisionism is annoying.

God, the f***ing receipts.

And this is why this sort of pushback against the "different times" schtick needs to happen: because the revisionism here distorts the actual reality of what happened. It not only softens the image of the subject and normalizes their vice, but also disregards and disrespects those who actually were there and didn't believe these things. Suddenly, to normalize Gary's view, a bunch of people have to turn into raging misogynists because people want that version of reality to exist to try and lessen the impact.
 



But you know, we should really consider that those people who freaked out, likely sent death threats to the authors, and continue to defend Gygax's sexism as being completely right... they are just products of their time. I mean, look at society, people say worse things and threaten death to other people over less all the time, so do we really need to judge those people?

[That was sarcasm by the way, and not directed at you Parmandur, but at the people who keep insisting on this line of argument.]
I hear ya.
 

The Handy-Dandy "Was Gary Gygax Sexist?" Decision Maker!
1) The Facts About the Man's Sexism:
a) He published and included sexist material.
b) He self-described as sexist.
c) He received pushback at the time for being sexist.
d) He described himself as a biological determinist and stated women couldn't really enjoy or play RPGs and wargames properly.
e) He doubled down on his sexism well into the 2000s, right up until he died.
Answer: Yes, he was sexist.
2) The Whataboutisms and Excuses:
a) The 1970s were a more sexist period!
Yes they were, generally. But that doesn't in any way change the fact that Gary was sexist. See 1 and pay particular note to c and e.
b) There were worse people/companies/flavours of icecream!
There nearly always are. This isn't about them though and doesn't change the facts about Gary. See 1.
c) But I like older editions/Gary/older art, etc. Are you cancelling things I like? Are you saying I'm bad, personally, for liking some dodgy older stuff?
No in both cases. The entire origin of this thread is as follows: Historians, in mammoth historical volume about the early history of D&D, included a few lines in the Foreword stating that some of that older material was sexist/dodgy, wrong both then and now. Reactionaries were outraged and claimed it was lies and slander (or in more extreme cases, that the sexism was 'based'), etc. Riggs posted, with evidence, material that refuted their claims that it was slander et al. Perhaps not the best evidence, but this thread was born and provides more.
d) Does it matter if he was sexist? Why do we need to know? How does it make things better?
Yes, it does matter. History includes the bad and good. We should learn from it. By recognising the good and bad, we can improve ourselves and our games. Ignoring unpalatable facts does history a disservice. Plus, let's not overlook the obvious: history is entertaining. Also, knowing he was sexist and in what way is interesting and in no way stops us from also recognising and appreciating his creation.
 
Last edited:

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Remove ads

Top