WotC D&D Historian Ben Riggs says the OGL fiasco was Chris Cocks idea.

[mamba]

I don't see any "clearly" and no one has ever explained how a walled garden would work.

so DDB is not a walled garden? A walled garden is one where one party controls access and benefits from providing that access, iTunes, Steam, etc.

Not sure what you think makes DDB fundamentally different from Steam

Certainly allowing 3PP seems to contradict that, or we have different definitions.

we must have different definitions then…

 

[Parmandur]

the disparity in revenue is not solely explained by DDB… being on DDB gives 3pp another revenue stream, maybe that is 50% additional sales, no idea, but it won’t somehow give them sales that are comparable to WotC’s.

Still, 30% or 50% more sales is nothing to sneeze at

Flee Mortals! had 27,009 backers on KickStarter.

D&D Beyond has somewhere north of 12 million users (we don't know how many at this point, but apparently growth projections were not hampered since the OGL mistake, so let's say "a lot").

If 1% of Beyond users check out the Flee Mortals! on Beyond, that could be like 400% increase in sales.

 

[mamba]

IMO, the entire situation as it originated and unfolded actually makes perfect sense to my mind as follows:

I agree with all of this except for two things

1) I don’t think the fear of anyone creating a D&D killer based on the OGL stuff was ever rational

2) the CC in no way prevents it or is a stronger separation of D&D from that other product than the OGL would have been

So in the end they caused all of this over nothing and gained nothing from it.

 

[mamba]

Flee Mortals! had 27,009 backers on KickStarter.

D&D Beyond has somewhere north of 12 million users

these are not really numbers you can compare. By that logic the internet has 1B users and they can all buy it from MCDM’s website…

the real question is what number of sales does MCDM get from KS, their own site, DTRPG and DDB, and which percentage of DDB sales would they not have gotten otherwise (by the same person buying it on DTRPG instead).

 

[TiQuinn]

the disparity in revenue is not solely explained by DDB… being on DDB gives 3pp another revenue stream, maybe that is 50% additional sales, no idea, but it won’t somehow give them sales that are comparable to WotC’s.

Still, 30% or 50% more sales is nothing to sneeze at

No, I’m trying to say the differences in revenues is so massive that comparison is difficult - they have completely different problems and goals. But if hitching your wagon to WotC’s platform gets you a relative bump in your revenue, even if you know down the line they may raise prices on you to participate in that platform, you still may pull the trigger on joining it.

 

[Oofta]

so DDB is not a walled garden? A walled garden is one where one party controls access and benefits from providing that access, iTunes, Steam, etc.

Not sure what you think makes DDB fundamentally different from Steam


we must have different definitions then…

But then D&D has always been a walled garden because to play the official versions with options you have to buy or at least have access to the books. But you don't need DDB to play, it's just one option. Just like their maps tool an yet to be released VTT.

Usually the walled garden is used in reference to forcing people into a subscription model. One where the only way to play is to subscribe.

You can still buy all the D&D books, you can still buy the 3PP separately. Nothing is stopping anyone from playing using the books, pen, and paper. Which means to me it's not a walled garden.

 

[mamba]

Eh, not as long as other platforms exist...which the CC resolution ensures.

another platform existing by itself means nothing, there are other OSes than Windows… once a platform has critical mass, it is hard to avoid it, both as a 3pp and as a consumer

 

[Parmandur]

1) I don’t think the fear of anyone creating a D&D killer based on the OGL stuff was ever rational

You, in 2024, do not believe it seems plausible (and I honestly somewhat agree with you). That doesn't necessarily mean a rational person in Cocks position in the past half decade could not rationally believe it is possible (and frankly, someone in that position has contacts in that world).

It is worth noting that after the OGL thing, by a brief amount (so it had been in the work for a while) Mark Zuckerberg did premiere an AI virtual reality DM using Snoop Dog's voice...so this might be something people have been interested ding to do, even if you and don6t't think they would have succeeded: the attempt may have turned out very bad for WotC and the D&D community.

So, since reasonable minds can differ, I can grant thst the fears Brink voiced can have been very real in Chris Cocks mind and almost more importantly in Mark Zuckerberg's mind.

2) the CC in no way prevents it or is a stronger separation of D&D from that other product than the OGL would have been

For you, me, and "in the know" hobbyists? No.

for the general public, seeing a licensed "anti-woke game the way Gary Gygax would have wanted it, using the current rules of the world's first roleplaying game"?

Again, rational minds can filter, and I can accept that someone was scared of this. And I do think that in this case, the CC being generally understood public domain means WotC can effectively distance themselves from bad actors like a LaNassa with more money (sadly possible). I do not think that WotC's legal troubles with Nu-TSR, comical as they are, had zero influence on these events: imagine if the richest man on Earth tried to pull the same stunts.

So in the end they caused all of this over nothing and gained nothing from it.

Well, I do think they gained the ability to distance themselves from bad actors, so not nothing: and I believe that ia why they went with CC, aside from being a final resolution that cannot be changed.

 

[mamba]

But then D&D has always been a walled garden because to play the official versions with options you have to buy or at least have access to the books.

did WotC somehow control access to the books?

But you don't need DDB to play, it's just one option. Just like their maps tool an yet to be released VTT.

that means it is not a monopoly, it still is a walled garden

I can buy stuff on iTunes or another site, iTunes is still a walled garden

 

[Parmandur]

another platform existing by itself means nothing, there are other OSes than Windows… once a platform has critical mass, it is hard to avoid it, both as a 3pp and as a consumer

Thst really isn't the case here, though: particularly since WotC is basically stuck with rules that they cannot make Beyond dependent now (which they honestly tried with 4E).