D&D Historian Benn Riggs On Gary Gygax & Sexism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Screenshot 2024-07-08 at 23.21.58.png


The recent book The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons 1970-1977 talks about the early years of D&D. In the book, authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro talk about the way the game, and its writers, approached certain issues. Not surprisingly, this revelation received aggressive "pushback" on social media because, well, that sort of thing does--in fact, one designer who worked with Gygax at the time labelled it "slanderous".

D&D historian Ben Riggs--author of Slaying the Dragon--delved into the facts. Note that the below was posted on Twitter, in that format, not as an article.

D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy.

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials.

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizard’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:"These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

GR9iKUjWsAAete8.jpeg

It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.)

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny.

(I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.)

Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D. Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D.

The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”


GR9iGsAW0AAmAOw.jpeg

The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response.

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said:“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth."

GR9iyo3XwAAQCtk.jpeg


"I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’...and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room."

"They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”


So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases...

Part 2: D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy....it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.

How? Let me show you.The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent...

...the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden ...

find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game we love? We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no **** and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is naughty word on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you.

I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know **** when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all…

We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them?

Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them. Or maybe when someone tells you there is **** on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on.

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like...

“Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.”

Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG. And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.

Appendix 1: Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D.

But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time.

GR9lAHtaQAANLyb.jpeg




Look, folks, we know how a conversation like this goes on the internet. Because, internet. Read the rules you agreed to before replying. The banhammer will be used on those who don't do what they agreed to.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

IOW, the whole “where does the name come from” is at best a sidebar. At worst it’s a rather deliberate attempt to derail the conversation.
It isn't, because the world 'original D&D' was created in, isn't the world now, no 'Internet', nor easy access to world wide information. You were generally stuck with what books your local library had and what books yourself had. And to be honest, I don't expect the collection of books on Babylonian myth in the 70s in your average US mid-western library to be all that great. IF there's a source that was used that depicts Tiamat in a particular (simplistic) way that could be misinterpreted by GG, that would be very relevant! But to date I haven't seen it. As a matter of fact wikipedia only lists two sources that predate the creation of D&D, there are possibly more...

To date we've seen Tiamat as:
  • Female
  • Serpent
  • Entity of Chaos
Anything else is all GG's doing. So a Chaotic Evil goddess of Dragons that is weaker then her male counterpart is all GG.

Dragons I can understand (going from serpents to dragons). The simplistic thinking of if there's baby dragons, there needs to be a daddy dragon god, is understandable for the time. The Lawful Good vs Chaotic Evil is all GG. As the whole Law vs Chaos thing predates the creation of D&D, judging it as a Good vs Evil thing is also simplistic GG thinking. Making the the female dragon god significantly weaker then the male dragon god is also all on GG. Add to that the comments and the context, then you don't have to think deeply to make some conclusions on why that situation is what it was...

If I made a fantasy world, I could most certainly make an evil goddess, not because women are evil. But people are both good and evil, so chances are good that in that pantheon there would be 'good' and 'evil' gods and goddesses, chances are also pretty big that such entities would be more alien and be beyond concepts as good vs evil, but just have a following among the 'good' or 'evil'. If making a multiheaded evil dragon goddess, that would certainly not be weaker then their male counterpart! Those entities themselves would not have stats, maybe their avatars would, but how powerful they would be would depend on how much power their parent entity invests in the avatar or possibly based on their power level/worship level in the world.

But then I have to wonder if in 50 years I wouldn't be judged harshly because my gods weren't all non-binary to begin with... And they might have a point... Would an all powerful being that's so powerful, that it's alien in nature actually have a gender? Would it be all genders or none of them? Would it care about the color of it's followers skin? Would it even have a skin?

In how far was GG not just writing for his target audience at the time? White American males of a certain age and a certain social status...
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Again, missing the point. It really doesn't matter what he did when he created Tiamat. That's not the point. Who cares? It's irrelevant.

What's relevant is the direct quote where he calls out Women's Lib. THAT'S THE IMPORTANT PART.

Good grief, how is this hard to understand? Never minding the next Gygax quote where he directly states that women have no place in D&D. Again, how is that not the important part? Who gives rat's petoot where the name Tiamat came from? That's so far away from the actual point that it's really hard not to see this as disingenuous. Almost 1500 posts in and we're STILL having to talk about this?

:erm:
 

It isn't, because the world 'original D&D' was created in, isn't the world now, no 'Internet', nor easy access to world wide information. You were generally stuck with what books your local library had and what books yourself had. And to be honest, I don't expect the collection of books on Babylonian myth in the 70s in your average US mid-western library to be all that great. IF there's a source that was used that depicts Tiamat in a particular (simplistic) way that could be misinterpreted by GG, that would be very relevant! But to date I haven't seen it. As a matter of fact wikipedia only lists two sources that predate the creation of D&D, there are possibly more...

To date we've seen Tiamat as:
  • Female
  • Serpent
  • Entity of Chaos
Anything else is all GG's doing. So a Chaotic Evil goddess of Dragons that is weaker then her male counterpart is all GG.

Dragons I can understand (going from serpents to dragons). The simplistic thinking of if there's baby dragons, there needs to be a daddy dragon god, is understandable for the time. The Lawful Good vs Chaotic Evil is all GG. As the whole Law vs Chaos thing predates the creation of D&D, judging it as a Good vs Evil thing is also simplistic GG thinking. Making the the female dragon god significantly weaker then the male dragon god is also all on GG. Add to that the comments and the context, then you don't have to think deeply to make some conclusions on why that situation is what it was...

If I made a fantasy world, I could most certainly make an evil goddess, not because women are evil. But people are both good and evil, so chances are good that in that pantheon there would be 'good' and 'evil' gods and goddesses, chances are also pretty big that such entities would be more alien and be beyond concepts as good vs evil, but just have a following among the 'good' or 'evil'. If making a multiheaded evil dragon goddess, that would certainly not be weaker then their male counterpart! Those entities themselves would not have stats, maybe their avatars would, but how powerful they would be would depend on how much power their parent entity invests in the avatar or possibly based on their power level/worship level in the world.

But then I have to wonder if in 50 years I wouldn't be judged harshly because my gods weren't all non-binary to begin with... And they might have a point... Would an all powerful being that's so powerful, that it's alien in nature actually have a gender? Would it be all genders or none of them? Would it care about the color of it's followers skin? Would it even have a skin?

In how far was GG not just writing for his target audience at the time? White American males of a certain age and a certain social status...
That's a nice irrelevant wall of text you got there. But here's a question for you:

Did Gary Gygax have to write "Women's Lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing"?

Did he? Don't you think that he could have left that out entirely? But he chose to write it and then leave it in. That's the actual issue.
 

Good grief, how is this hard to understand? Never minding the next Gygax quote where he directly states that women have no place in D&D. Again, how is that not the important part? Who gives rat's petoot where the name Tiamat came from? That's so far away from the actual point that it's really hard not to see this as disingenuous. Almost 1500 posts in and we're STILL having to talk about this?
I know that reading is hard, but that's why I said:
"Add to that the comments and the context, then you don't have to think deeply to make some conclusions on why that situation is what it was..." As is the other sexist remarks and comments written in the margins...

And apparently we give a rat's petoot about where the name Tiamat came from...

That the comment about "Women's Lib" is even a discussion point is completely alien to me. Yeah, that was a wholly uncool dig. And gives a very good look at GG look on women. How is that even a discussion point? But that's effectively an out-of-game comment. Tiamat is a very in game 'comment' on women. The Tiamat discussion is not about whether there is a rabbit hole, it's about how deep the rabbit hole goes and imho the rabbit hole goes deep!
 

Tiamat isn't even part of the conversation. It doesn't matter. I don't know who your "we" is. Apparently you care, but, well... that's nice? I guess? Since it's completely irrelevant to actual conversation that's going on. "In game" or "out of game"? Why does that matter?

These were not "written in the margins". These were PUBLIC STATEMENTS.
 

Tiamat isn't even part of the conversation. It doesn't matter. I don't know who your "we" is. Apparently you care, but, well... that's nice? I guess? Since it's completely irrelevant to actual conversation that's going on. "In game" or "out of game"? Why does that matter?

These were not "written in the margins". These were PUBLIC STATEMENTS.
But did you know that Tiamat was a Babylonian goddess?! lather, rinse, repeat
 


Why won't people just agree to keep being distracted by the semantic argument instead of still talking about the actual topic of admitted and doubled down sexism? Look at the distraction, damnit!
Someone needs to make an image of Johnnie Cochran in South Park doing the "Chewbacca Defense," but with a picture of Babylonian goddess Tiamat instead just so we can call it out for what it is.
 

It isn't, because the world 'original D&D' was created in, isn't the world now, no 'Internet', nor easy access to world wide information. You were generally stuck with what books your local library had and what books yourself had. And to be honest, I don't expect the collection of books on Babylonian myth in the 70s in your average US mid-western library to be all that great. IF there's a source that was used that depicts Tiamat in a particular (simplistic) way that could be misinterpreted by GG, that would be very relevant! But to date I haven't seen it. As a matter of fact wikipedia only lists two sources that predate the creation of D&D, there are possibly more...

To date we've seen Tiamat as:
  • Female
  • Serpent
  • Entity of Chaos
But none of this is relevant because she didn't get called Tiamat until 1977 in the Monster Manual, two years after she first appeared in Greyhawk. We've been talking about this intermittently since Tuesday.

In 1975, when he invented the monster, she was a big evil female opposite to the big good male dragon king, but neither of them had a name from real world mythology. So you've missed an important data point. He made up an evil opposite number to his good male dragon king, made a crack about Women's Lib explicitly acknowledging that he was aware of the implications and didn't care, and only two years later retroactively attached the name of a real world female deity to her.

The whole argument from earlier in the thread that Gary made her female because he was basing her on Tiamat has collapsed. All the research into whether Tiamat was represented as a dragon in contemporary mythology texts in the library turned out to be beside the point. Because it has no bearing on his original choice to make the evil dragon queen female.
 
Last edited:


Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Remove ads

Top