D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[MoonSong]

@TiQuinn this is a matter of representation. For a lot of us mixed people half-elf is representation in the fiction, a way for us to project onto the fiction. Losing it in the way that it was lost was insulting and upsetting.

 

[Maxperson]

Except that half-elves did not stay half-elves in Tolkien’s mythology.

They had to choose between their two parentages. Be an elf and be immortal, or accept humanity and be mortal.

As for half-orcs and orcs, there’s been plenty written about racist tropes in Tolkien’s work.

Yes and no. They had to choose to be counted among humans(mortality) or counted among the elves(immortality), but they remained half-elven. They only counted as one of those races, they did not turn into one of those races. That's probably why half-elves in D&D can use elf only items.

 

[TiQuinn]

@TiQuinn this is a matter of representation. For a lot of us mixed people half-elf is representation in the fiction, a way for us to project onto the fiction. Losing it in the way that it was lost was insulting and upsetting.

Okay but you don’t speak for everyone on that. Sorry but there is another perspective that is tired of fantasy racism too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except that half-elves did not stay half-elves in Tolkien’s mythology.

They had to choose between their two parentages. Be an elf and be immortal, or accept humanity and be mortal.

As for half-orcs and orcs, there’s been plenty written about racist tropes in Tolkien’s work.

Yes there has, and it is an ongoing discussion in Tolkien scholarship.

 

[TiQuinn]

Yes there has, and it is an ongoing discussion in Tolkien scholarship.

That’s irrelevant. Almost as irrelevant as your point earlier that one can simply not include half species at their tables. Obviously the opposite is equally true.

 

[Guest 7031328]

Because invariably in fiction, as well as at the table, the explanation for these characters and their heritage involve sexual assault (orcs invaded our homeland) or the characters are outsiders because, of course, mixed heritage is something to be looked down on.

This is present in plenty of fiction both old and new. Tanis Half-Elven of Dragonlance fame was originally a product of rape until that was retconned much later. Then of course, he was an outsider living amongst humans because naturally a half-elf has to be treated as such in fantasy literature. Ditto Vax and Vex of Vox Machina/Critical Role whose characters are treated as inferior because of their mixed heritage by their father and the other elves.

It’s a tiresome, self-perpetuating trope. Whether it’s players at the table or authors writing a book, if there is a mixed heritage fantasy character, chances are they will feel the need to explain that mixed parentage and many times it’s going to lean into either sexual assault or experiencing racism.

I suppose my problem with the solution coming from this is it's saying that it's not the source or the writer being the problem, but it's the existence of mixed-heritage. Now please don't think what I'm about to say is what you're saying, it very much is not, but it is far too similar with ideas of "mixed race" kids being something to be pitied or even should not be existing. I even used to have a friend decades ago (we stopped being friends not too long after this) who came back to our area after a few years being gone saying that it "was wrong" for races to mix, and that it was an awful thing to do to a child, completely ignoring "hey, I've supposedly been your friend since we were kids, and you're saying my existence is a problem?"

You don't fix problematic depictions of mixed heritage by turning the game into one of racial purity, to put an ugly word to it. That's simply the wrong direction in my opinion.

 

[TiQuinn]

I suppose my problem with the solution coming from this is it's saying that it's not the source or the writer being the problem, but it's the existence of mixed-heritage. Now please don't think what I'm about to say is what you're saying, it very much is not, but it is far too similar with ideas of "mixed race" kids being something to be pitied or even should not be existing. I even used to have a friend decades ago (we stopped being friends not too long after this) who came back to our area after a few years being gone saying that it "was wrong" for races to mix, and that it was an awful thing to do to a child, completely ignoring "hey, I've supposedly been your friend since we were kids, and you're saying my existence is a problem?"

You don't fix problematic depictions of mixed heritage by turning the game into one of racial purity, to put an ugly word to it. That's simply the wrong direction in my opinion.

I’m not comfortable with the analogy to begin with that mixed heritage of fantasy species is a stand-in for mixed heritage in real life. I don’t believe that was the intent when half elves or or half orcs were created for the game and if it was intended, I find that much worse because the early editions of the game gave license to discriminate against half-orcs, originally giving them negatives to their charisma scores and having an entry in the 1e Monster Manual that calls them unsavory mongrels. Certainly, authors (and players) opted for the analogy at times. Instead of making these links, I’d rather we move past it to elves and orcs where discussions of parentage no longer are a trope upon which people can easily hang that hat.

 

[Vaalingrade]

@TiQuinn this is a matter of representation. For a lot of us mixed people half-elf is representation in the fiction, a way for us to project onto the fiction. Losing it in the way that it was lost was insulting and upsetting.

As one of those folks, I'd like to have mixed heritages that celebrate their unique blend of ancestry rather than be consistently, narratively sad about it. The Half elf narrative was in and of itself insulting and upsetting. Not as much as the half orc, but it was still pretty terrible from where I stand.

 

[Stormonu]

goliaths, dragonborn and tieflings aren't half-X's though so that comparison doesn't work like you intend it to, half-elves and half-orcs are explicitly mixed-blood offspring from two other existing player species, you're never going to get a tiefling from your parents being a human and a demon.

I stand by my statement. They are really just halves with the serial numbers filed off.

 

[MoonSong]

As one of those folks, I'd like to have mixed heritages that celebrate their unique blend of ancestry rather than be consistently, narratively sad about it. The Half elf narrative was in and of itself insulting and upsetting. Not as much as the half orc, but it was still pretty terrible from where I stand.

But we had a narrative something that had lore, art, and visibility. It could be tweaked and improved on. Now we have nothing, only "you are truly one or the other" or maybe "something you can hope to get to play at most once".

Also I can't let go of the awfull feeling that came upon hearing "your existence is inherently racist so go away".