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D&D 5E Legendary Resistance shouldn't be optional

I often see DM's who feel very unhappy about characters abilities that require the player to make what is, in effect, an out of universe decision. A monster likely doesn't know exactly what failing a given save will do to it, but the DM can make a value judgment about it.

I don't have any problem with this personally- but it is something to consider. The ability to pick and choose what saving throw you choose to succeed is a gamist element that potentially interferes with verisimilitude.

I don't really buy this one. We don't know what spells look like. We don't know what saving throws are like. We don't know what the experience of resisting Hold Monster or Maze or anything like that feels like. It's not automatically unrealistic because the game is mute on that narrative. That's chosing the least charitable interpretation.

Petrification might be completely instantaneous... or it might creep up your arms letting the victim realize what is happening. Nevermind that just because it requires a conscious decision on the part of the player or DM, that doesn't mean it must do so for the in game character at all. It might act like a subconscious reflex like a spidey sense. Of course it's only triggered by the most dangerous effects. It driven partly by divination magic.

There is already so much in combat that is forced to be gamist. Just the basic structure of a combat round is so abstract that it barely represents anything like combat at all. While I'm sure this is a bridge too far for some players, I don't buy that it's really a significant problem. Reactions retconnig events is hardly unique to LR. Even then I question if it even breaks verisimilitude, given how video games, action movies, and fantasy novels feature boss monsters that dodge or shrug off attacks that they simply shouldn't.
 

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I’ve seen players attempt to burn though legendary resistance with cantrips that have trivial effect if the save is failed. It’s pretty pointless having LR at all if the big bad can’t choose to ignore this tactic.

NB there are a few creatures with 2 and 4 uses of LR.
 



For me, the problem that it solves is that players no longer have to guess whether they are going to waste their entire turn doing something pointless because the DM decides to use legendary resistance. Players know what abilities work and which don't work, and they can plan accordingly to make sure they are always doing something fun and fulfilling (I also always tell them which monsters have LR and which don't, there is no guessing or metagaming required).

That makes sense. I guess I just disagree that the players need to know what abilities work and should be able to plan accordingly. I highly value surprise in my fights - it's dramatic and interesting. Having a predictable list of immunities is much less surprising and interesting than "Try it. See what happens." The DM can use legendary resistance when appropriate for the fight, without being constrained by a specific list.
 


That makes sense. I guess I just disagree that the players need to know what abilities work and should be able to plan accordingly. I highly value surprise in my fights - it's dramatic and interesting. Having a predictable list of immunities is much less surprising and interesting than "Try it. See what happens." The DM can use legendary resistance when appropriate for the fight, without being constrained by a specific list.
I'll agree with you that players don't NEED to know what abilities work in combat, but I just think it makes the game more fun if they do.

When you sit there for what seems like eternity waiting for your turn to finally get to do something, only to have the DM negate your entire turn with a legendary resistance, that suuuuuucks. There's just nothing fun to me about having your entire agency taken away by an invisible mechanic. I'd rather keep the unpredictable "try it and see what happens" moments to the exploration and social pillars where player creativity can be rewarded much more easily, and where you can immediately just try something else if your idea doesn't work.
 

I don't really buy this one. We don't know what spells look like. We don't know what saving throws are like. We don't know what the experience of resisting Hold Monster or Maze or anything like that feels like. It's not automatically unrealistic because the game is mute on that narrative. That's chosing the least charitable interpretation.

Petrification might be completely instantaneous... or it might creep up your arms letting the victim realize what is happening. Nevermind that just because it requires a conscious decision on the part of the player or DM, that doesn't mean it must do so for the in game character at all. It might act like a subconscious reflex like a spidey sense. Of course it's only triggered by the most dangerous effects. It driven partly by divination magic.

There is already so much in combat that is forced to be gamist. Just the basic structure of a combat round is so abstract that it barely represents anything like combat at all. While I'm sure this is a bridge too far for some players, I don't buy that it's really a significant problem. Reactions retconnig events is hardly unique to LR. Even then I question if it even breaks verisimilitude, given how video games, action movies, and fantasy novels feature boss monsters that dodge or shrug off attacks that they simply shouldn't.
All I'm saying is, I've heard many complaints about PC abilities that require metagame thinking on the part of the player, especially reactions that "rewind time" to turn hits into misses and so on. Heck, look at the complaints about Counterspell and all the debate about how one would recognize a spell being cast to know what you're trying to counter.

Now you have LR, which is a no-action Counterspell on crack, and all these arguments vanish instantly because it's something the DM uses?

Again though, I'm not the one making these arguments- I know D&D is a game, not a simulation, and it's chock full of these gamist elements. But it seems to me that if someone doesn't like them, then they shouldn't be on board with legendary resistance either.

-

My main issue with LR has been, and will continue to be, how it unfairly impacts players based on party makeup. If your group has three spellcasters* with spells someone wouldn't want to fail, then the lost of three spell slots isn't the worst thing ever- except of course, it's not just three spell slots, because it's on top of the spell slots they'd likely lose as a normal part of play since most legendary critters have great saves, but that's a whole separate issue. You really have to ask yourself if the battle is really going to last long enough to make that kind of play worthwhile, lol.

*Things may change in the new 2024 version, of course but right now, there's precious few non-casters who have abilities worth using LR on- pretty much the Monk, when you get down to it.

The more "casters" you add, the less punishing LR is to the party's resources, but look at the flipside- if you only have one caster in a party, it's not even worth using spells against LR because it's going to take at least four rounds to land a debilitating spell and the thing is probably going to die before you get the chance!

And some casters don't need to interact with LR at all to be useful- the Warlock can just shrug and spam the old eldritch blast, the Paladin can just turn spell slots into smites, the Druid might turn into a bear or just summon animals- so really LR is basically saying "yeah, if your DM doesn't like a spell, don't use it in this fight", and some casters will be perfectly fine with that and others won't, depending on how they employ their magic.
 

This is such a ridiculous attitude and undermines your entire argument by making it seem like you see everything as petty beefs and can't conceive/believe that someone would make a genuine argument to improve an aspect of that game. I mean, such attitudes are common, but they're also almost always projection of a rather straightforward kind. Not saying yours is, but when I see this attitude in videogames, it does tend to be, as you can often go back through their posts and see them habitually accusing others of only arguing for changes because they want to benefit from them.

Not a good look anyway.
It isn't ridiculous at all... I've seen players bemoan the LR effect denying them their "moment" when a big whammy failed due to LR. As I said, adding guidelines for when LR might be most useful is a good idea in general, to help DM weigh the pros and cons of using it versus X or Y, etc. But actual predetermined triggers? No, not so much.

Why would anyone propose such a system that predetermines when LR would be used other than to find an angle to game it out of (effectively) existance?

Not only that, but I feel as though they're removing DM agency. Like we can't trust the GM to do their job.
Yep.

The problem I'm solving is that right now, LR creates weird, perverse incentives for spellcasters. You either avoid spells that should be very effective, because they waste your actions, or you end up using less effective spells, and hoping your DM decides to use the LR early, so you can actually deploy one of your winning spells.
Yeah, there it is.

That is PRECISELY why LR are good as they are. It forces casters and PCs with other features (like monk's stun) to use things powerful enough to force LR use. Those actions aren't wasted anymore than someone attacking to damage a creature to get through its hit points. LR are there to help provide those creatures with an extra round or two (maybe) before the action economy of the party overwhelms them.

So, it comes down to:

"I (the caster typically) want to be able to use my best very effective whammie spell but can't because the DM will just use LR to stop it. But if LR only works against certain triggers, we just have to avoid those and then I can have my fun moment and make LR virtually useless."

It nerfs LR ridiculously IMO. Your proposal is at best a good house-rule if you believe LR as they are now lessen the enjoyment of everyone at the table (not just the players...).
 

I'll agree with you that players don't NEED to know what abilities work in combat, but I just think it makes the game more fun if they do.

When you sit there for what seems like eternity waiting for your turn to finally get to do something, only to have the DM negate your entire turn with a legendary resistance, that suuuuuucks. There's just nothing fun to me about having your entire agency taken away by an invisible mechanic. I'd rather keep the unpredictable "try it and see what happens" moments to the exploration and social pillars where player creativity can be rewarded much more easily, and where you can immediately just try something else if your idea doesn't work.
Do you mind if a monster succeeds at its saving throws? If not, what is the difference with LR in your mind? If so, why have monsters make saves at all?
 

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