D&D (2024) D&D species article

[Chaosmancer]

It's not big.

It's big and muscular.

Orcs and Goliaths are noted for their extreme non-agility-limited strength.

Actually no where I have ever read in a fantasy novel or story have the ever claimed that orcs are noted for their non-agility-limited strength.

In fact, the strong but limited by their agility like all strong things.... is a far more common theme.

And let's pull back for a second. Orcs have NEVER in 5e had athletics, or any advantage to jumping, climbing or swimming. Not once.

And you already agreed once that Goliaths should lift more than orcs, so orcs losing powerful build makes sense. It fits with allowing Goliaths to be the best lifters, and it opened enough power budget to let them have a far more interesting and powerful ability.

Sure, Goliath's used to get athletics as part of Powerful Build. It was more important to the designers to emphasize their ability to rip free from grapples than it was to emphasize any climbing, swimming or jumping. They are still good at those things, especially if you choose to give them a high strength, but it wasn't emphasized.

 

[Micah Sweet]

OKay, good for you.

The designers when looking at either nerfing 24 options (most of which don't show up in this book) or buffing three options (all of which appear in this book) decided it made the most logical sense to make the least disruptive change. Especially since they would need to have a human option that was medium and has a 30 ft movement speed, and a human option that was small and had a 25 ft movement speed, which would have been a bit of a balance problem.

And yet again, your utter disdain for the word balance, or concerns about character parity don't mean that these things are not important to other people who actually purchase and play WoTC's version of the game.

You think making player-side changes to three species is less disruptive than making minor changes to some statblocks?

And I don't disdain balance. I just don't think its the most important part of game mechanics.

 

[Minigiant]

Actually no where I have ever read in a fantasy novel or story have the ever claimed that orcs are noted for their non-agility-limited strength.

In fact, the strong but limited by their agility like all strong things.... is a far more common theme

It's a D&D trope.

Since 4E the racial power of the orc is their ability to run very fast.

They don't even get a dexterity penalty.

Goliath also aren't clumsy. You have to go back to 3e to see the DEX penalty in the psionic half giant.

Goliaths losing Athletics isn't the worst.

But Orcs losing Powerful Build just makes them green/grey humans with nightvision and bad teeth.

 

[Chaosmancer]

no it doesn’t, and the PHB does not have to create it either because it does not have those species in it. Create it for the 10 species in the PHB, give some guidance for other species, and move on. Do the full conversion when you revisit the species in the next X of Everything. There is a reason why I called it a sidebar and not a chapter

You can't make the 30 to 60 feats needed to convert those 10 species into that sort of system with just a sidebar. You would need to have a full chapter devoted to them.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You think making player-side changes to three species is less disruptive than making minor changes to some statblocks?

What do you mean by "some statblocks"? I'm talking about the 24 other player-side species they would need to change.

So, yeah, I think changing 3 player options is less disruptive than changing 24 player options.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It's a D&D trope.

Since 4E the racial power of the orc is their ability to run very fast.

They don't even get a dexterity penalty.

Cool. Adrenaline Rush allows them to run very fast. So no changes, we are all good here.

Goliath also aren't clumsy. You have to go back to 3e to see the DEX penalty in the psionic half giant.

Goliaths losing Athletics isn't the worst.

Okay, never claimed they are clumsy. But that doesn't mean they are superior swimmers either.

But Orcs losing Powerful Build just makes them green/grey humans with nightvision and bad teeth.

And the ability to survive a single mortal blow
and the ability to run faster than others
and the ability to at a minimum double their health (seriously, compare a commoner human with 4 hp to a commoner orc who with temp hp has an effective 8, essentially making them barbarian-lite)

But yeah, just like humans. Who will on average had four more skills than an orc and a free re-roll on anything. Can't even tell the two apart.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's a D&D trope.

Since 4E the racial power of the orc is their ability to run very fast.

They don't even get a dexterity penalty.

Goliath also aren't clumsy. You have to go back to 3e to see the DEX penalty in the psionic half giant.

Goliaths losing Athletics isn't the worst.

But Orcs losing Powerful Build just makes them green/grey humans with nightvision and bad teeth.

I've seen and share this complaint more than once, but it seems that's what WotC thinks people want from orcs. What are you gonna do?

 

[Micah Sweet]

You can't make the 30 to 60 feats needed to convert those 10 species into that sort of system with just a sidebar. You would need to have a full chapter devoted to them.

Seems like a cool chapter. I'd read it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What do you mean by "some statblocks"? I'm talking about the 24 other player-side species they would need to change.

So, yeah, I think changing 3 player options is less disruptive than changing 24 player options.

The change would go up instantly on DDB, and they're planning on selling people "updated" material moving forward anyway to replace MMotM, so I don't see the problem.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Cool. Adrenaline Rush allows them to run very fast. So no changes, we are all good here.



Okay, never claimed they are clumsy. But that doesn't mean they are superior swimmers either.



And the ability to survive a single mortal blow
and the ability to run faster than others
and the ability to at a minimum double their health (seriously, compare a commoner human with 4 hp to a commoner orc who with temp hp has an effective 8, essentially making them barbarian-lite)

But yeah, just like humans. Who will on average had four more skills than an orc and a free re-roll on anything. Can't even tell the two apart.

You think they'll update the NPC statblocks with any of that information (for any species)?