D&D General Huge Equipment Lists: Good, Bad, or Ugly?

[Oofta]

I see it as, you take what you can get. Especially with D&D, if we're going off the lowest common denominator to justify tossing out realism for everything else, then adventures might as well take place in wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey swirls of chaos where your armor can just as easily turn into a pink elephant and squash you*, because D&D is already a raging uncontrolled mess to anyone with regard for historical or physical accuracy. Accurate combat is always going to be a challenge, but pretty much everyone understands that it's hard to sleep well when you're extremely uncomfortable. We can make it feel more real for very little downside, so why not?

Not sleeping in armor doesn't mean not fighting in armor, for the most part (unless your DM is sadistic but that's really its own problem), so I guess I'm confused as to why this is where we draw a line in the sand? Sure, martials have it bad in D&D, but for that discussion I have much bigger bones to pick than what they wear to bed.

*I'm sure this has happened at a table somewhere.

It's just a weird penalty for a build option that is already penalized in multiple ways. In my own experiences sleeping while uncomfortable I slept just fine, especially if I was physically exhausted. Of all the things to change or limit because of realism, on a scale of 1-10, this barely ranks a 1. Based on what others that actually have experience, it doesn't even rank that. From a gameplay point of view it can be a major penalty, one that can be completely avoided by building a dex based character.

If you have personal experience or have talked to people who have that say that it can't happen please share. Because after a minute or so of googling I found this (1):

I did. I worn plate armor for the croydon parade which ended in a festival. After dueling most of the day i was shattered and could not be bothered getting out of the armor and fell asleep in my tent. Okay i did not wear a helmet when sleeping but the gambeson kept me warm at night. If it was chainmail the weight on my chest would have been uncomfortable but i wore full plate and when lying on the ground it supports itself.​

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EDIT: just a note - if you scroll down on the link I got the post from, there's an image from a medieval manuscript of someone sleeping in armor.

EDIT #2: another first-hand testimonial (2)

I've slept in both chain and plate with no problem; it's actually pretty comfy so long as you aren't expecting a feather bed. After a hard day wearing armour (let alone travel and fighting in it), mostly all you care about is being warm and having a bit of quiet so you can get some shut-eye. The thing about armour is that on the whole, it's the same shape as you. That means you can really snuggle into the nooks and crannies and if you're on even something vaguely soft it's not really that much less comfy than not wearing it. The main issue is any pointy bits, but you can tuck blankets around you or, you know, just sleep so the pointy bits aren't poking you. I have issue with rules that imply there should be any penalty for wearing even the heaviest armour (unless they're stupid fantasy armour, of course; that stuff might be a different matter).​

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tl;dr - if armour wasn't comfy to sleep in, it wouldn't be wearable in the first place.​

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok, so the mage has to re-cast. Takes one action. It's not like the heavy armor users have a prayer of getting their defenses back. And even if armor had more benefits, in this scenario, some of the group no longer has armor at all, so they're even worse off.

If you're ok with game balance being sacrificed on the altar of simulation, that's fine, but I have reservations. I had a DM who used to think it was fun to have the Thieves' lockpicks break when they failed to open a lock (much like they do in The Elder Scrolls). He thought it was great fun until we ended up in a scenario where the Thief was no longer able to open locks at all. That may or may not have been more realistic, but it wasn't very enjoyable. And then, the next time we hit town, we bought five sets of Thieves' Tools and it was never an issue again.

I like them breaking on a natural 1, or possibly a failure of 5 or more. Failure and setbacks are part of play, and games that mitigate that too much aren't fun for me.

And IMO thieves tools are (or should be) expensive and restricted. If someone wants to lay out for five sets more power to them.

 

[borringman]

I had a DM who used to think it was fun to have the Thieves' lockpicks break when they failed to open a lock (much like they do in The Elder Scrolls). He thought it was great fun until we ended up in a scenario where the Thief was no longer able to open locks at all. That may or may not have been more realistic, but it wasn't very enjoyable.

We had it slowed and prone when the DM announced "it gets away" and my instant reaction was "how?! why?!"

It sounds more like you've had crappy DMs, and their crappiness has led you to build up resentment against realists, when there's nothing realistic about the situations you're describing.

Just because a DM says they're being realistic, it could just mean they're a jerk. In fact, that's common, so I get it. But please cool off a bit. We're not the DM(s) you unfortunately had to deal with, so while you have my sympathies, that ends at using us as strawman proxies for this joker. It's disingenuous and closing your mind.

It's just a weird penalty for a build option that is already penalized in multiple ways.

Normal sleep is weird now? This conversation is going places.

Like James and his DM, you sound more sour that martials are screwed over in D&D overall, and taking out your frustrations on realists. This is a strange hill to die on, because in normal situations (you're wide awake and armored) winning this quibble is worth nothing. It won't fix the fundamental problems with martials.

The other thing is that this complaint is oddly myopic, as if "realism" is only used for this one thing as a cudgel to "get martialy". We're talking about sleep, but what about cold weather? RAW, you could be soaked through in summer clothes in a hurricane-force blizzard but you're perfectly fine if it's one degree above 0 F (-17 C). That's. . . more than a little ridiculous. Well, if we were to "real it up", almost all armor has thick padding or is thick padding, so I'd give you cold weather resistance for free. Wizard robes, not so much. There isn't an anti-martial conspiracy here being run under a false flag of "realism".*

*We are at 150,000 members and growing. We are Legion. My faithful followers, we will soon be ready for Phase Theta: Armor Hit Locations!!

 

[Oofta]

It sounds more like you've had crappy DMs, and their crappiness has led you to build up resentment against realists, when there's nothing realistic about the situations you're describing.

Just because a DM says they're being realistic, it could just mean they're a jerk. In fact, that's common, so I get it. But please cool off a bit. We're not the DM(s) you unfortunately had to deal with, so while you have my sympathies, that ends at using us as strawman proxies for this joker. It's disingenuous and closing your mind.

Normal sleep is weird now? This conversation is going places.

Like James and his DM, you sound more sour that martials are screwed over in D&D overall, and taking out your frustrations on realists. This is a strange hill to die on, because in normal situations (you're wide awake and armored) winning this quibble is worth nothing. It won't fix the fundamental problems with martials.

The other thing is that this complaint is oddly myopic, as if "realism" is only used for this one thing as a cudgel to "get martialy". We're talking about sleep, but what about cold weather? RAW, you could be soaked through in summer clothes in a hurricane-force blizzard but you're perfectly fine if it's one degree above 0 F (-17 C). That's. . . more than a little ridiculous. Well, if we were to "real it up", almost all armor has thick padding or is thick padding, so I'd give you cold weather resistance for free. Wizard robes, not so much. There isn't an anti-martial conspiracy here being run under a false flag of "realism".*

*We are at 150,000 members and growing. We are Legion. My faithful followers, we will soon be ready for Phase Theta: Armor Hit Locations!!

I have yet to find a single quote from a person who has actually slept in armor that said they could not do it. I just posted two separate quotes from people who have actually had experience sleeping in plate armor. They said they had no issue, although admittedly they were tired.

You probably don't want to wear armor 24 hours a day for days on end for different reasons. But sleep? Not on the list.

 

[Clint_L]

The issue I generally have with the "no sleeping in armor" is that

1. I've never slept in armor. I have slept just fine on rocky ground with no or minimal padding. I slept fine. If we needed a bed and PJs to sleep, humanity would never have survived.
2. Armor is generally unrealistic in D&D, why make sleeping an exception?

Because sleeping in armour doesn't make sense, and we all know it, but it also takes away fun story opportunities and reduces threat. So while the realism argument doesn't necessarily clinch it for me, the fact that allowing it is both unrealistic and, well, lame, does.

Players reacting to challenging situations is the point of the game.

 

[Oofta]

Because sleeping in armour doesn't make sense, and we all know it, but it also takes away fun story opportunities and reduces threat. So while the realism argument doesn't necessarily clinch it for me, the fact that allowing it is both unrealistic and, well, lame, does.

Players reacting to challenging situations is the point of the game.

Find one quote from a person that has slept in armor that says it doesn't work. Just one. Because I can't and I've looked, see my post above. Every post I've ever seen about sleeping in armor from people who have actually done it says they slept just fine.

From a hygiene perspective, you'll want to clean up and air out occasionally, but that goes for all armor. There are a lot of myths about armor, not being able to sleep in it is just one. When a challenge is only a challenge based on incorrect assumptions and only affects a handful of character build options, it's not a challenge. It's doubling down on already significant penalties for no reason IMHO.

I challenge my players in multiple ways all the time. This is one that makes no sense.

 

[Mannahnin]

From experience, sleeping in (most) armor sucks, but you can do it if you're tired enough.

A mail hauberk does indeed weigh on your chest, especially if you're prone, and inhibits your breathing.

A plate or hard leather back-and-breastplate / cuirass supports its own weight, but is normally shaped for comfort standing, not lying. It will tend to dig in places you don't want if you try to sleep in it, and that can really only work at all flat on your back. Side sleeping is basically impossible. This applies equally to brigandine or any other rigid armor.

Catnaps sitting up are more doable.

A padded gambeson would be ok, though very warm in hot weather.

Find one quote from a person that has slept in armor that says it doesn't work. Just one. Because I can't and I've looked, see my post above. Every post I've ever seen about sleeping in armor from people who have actually done it says they slept just fine.

Ah, no. That second sentence is completely false.

To my recollection everyone quoted (including myself) has said you can do it in a pinch, if you're tired enough, but it's not comfortable. Your sleep quality DOES suffer and that will impair your performance the following day if you need to engage in heavy exertion.

If this were a more realistic simulation and we cared about detailed fatigue, we might do something like impose a simple -1 to D20 rolls and save DCs per night you sleep in discomfort like this. Not a crippling penalty for a night or two, but the weariness and aches will add up over time.

tl;dr - if armour wasn't comfy to sleep in, it wouldn't be wearable in the first place.

This is pure nonsense.

 

[Oofta]

Ah, no. That second sentence is completely false.

To my recollection everyone quoted (including myself) has said you can do it in a pinch, if you're tired enough, but it's not comfortable. Your sleep quality DOES suffer and that will impair your performance the following day if you need to engage in heavy exertion.

If this were a more realistic simulation and we cared about detailed fatigue, we might do something like impose a simple -1 to D20 rolls and save DCs per night you sleep in discomfort like this. Not a crippling penalty for a night or two, but the weariness and aches will add up over time.


This is pure nonsense.

Have you slept in custom made plate armor?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think, by default, there should be an extremely streamlined core equipment list. And then, for groups that want them, there should be a separate -- under different covers, in fact -- much more expansive equipment list.

The people who just want to get to the good stuff shouldn't be forced to skim through a list with things like garden hoes, astrolabes, pitons, etc., while groups that like that level of granularity should have it available.

 

[Clint_L]

Find one quote from a person that has slept in armor that says it doesn't work. Just one. Because I can't and I've looked, see my post above. Every post I've ever seen about sleeping in armor from people who have actually done it says they slept just fine.

From a hygiene perspective, you'll want to clean up and air out occasionally, but that goes for all armor. There are a lot of myths about armor, not being able to sleep in it is just one. When a challenge is only a challenge based on incorrect assumptions and only affects a handful of character build options, it's not a challenge. It's doubling down on already significant penalties for no reason IMHO.

I challenge my players in multiple ways all the time. This is one that makes no sense.

I'm not arguing that it is not possible to sleep in armour in a crisis. Humans can do lots of things in a crisis. If you're exhausted enough, you will sleep. You will sleep while driving a car if you're tired enough. And getting bad sleep is better than getting no sleep...well, maybe not while driving. But you're the one making the extraordinary, counter-intuitive claim, so I challenge you to find me even one reputable source that documents people sleeping in armour as a matter of routine, which is what we are talking about here. Or contact a sleep expert and ask them if they would advise it.

Not people who feel asleep because they were exhausted and there was no other choice. People who just casually slept in their armour all the time as if it was no different than not.

I mean, I played lacrosse. I have nodded off with my equipment on. But would I go to bed like that? Would I be able to get proper rest, night after night, if I was, say, tramping through the wild or a dungeon and surviving for days? This is a silly idea, and modern sports equipment is a lot lighter and more comfortable than medieval armours.

To be clear, what I am talking about is the party setting up camp, putting out guards and then the characters who aren't on guard going to sleep in their armour, up to and including full plate. Every night. That's their routine. As a DM, I would penalize that. I would allow them the benefits of a short rest, but not a long rest, unless they had maybe three levels of exhaustion or more. If they were continually sleeping in armour, I wouldn't let them get above two exhaustion levels. So they're surviving, but not at their best. Because, obviously.

Edit: But hey, this is a testable hypothesis. Someone who is motivated to know for sure should go on, say, a two week camping trip wearing armour the whole time, including at night while trying to sleep, and let us know how it goes.