D&D (2024) Command is the Perfect Encapsulation of Everything I Don't Like About 5.5e

[Ruin Explorer]

Did they, though? This sounds like an anecdote, but if you have evidence to back it up, I'm open to seeing it. As far as my experience goes, every old DM who's running a game is running 5e (except maybe one I know in another town).

Yeah I don't think @Minigiant is right about that.

I think 5E got an awful lot of 1/2/3E DMs back to DMing. Most of whom didn't quit because of 4E not, but just dropped out of DMing and/or D&D in general at some point back in the day. Just looking at the groups I've played 5E in, the overwhelming majority of DMs have been ones who used to DM in 1/2/3E.

I do think there's been a bit of a drain to OSRs and other RPGs over the last few years, especially post-lockdown, because I don't think all of those DMs were entirely happy with 5E (but were delighted to be DMing again), and among older DMs there's more awareness of non-D&D RPGs, but I've seen no evidence that people rejected 5E early on in favour of OSRs etc. - it kind of seems like the reverse - people ran 5E, then went to OSRs etc

One other thing I'd note is that, maybe this is just my friends, but since the pandemic a few people who had never seemingly wanted or offered to DM before have asked to run games, and interestingly none of them wanted to run 5E - they've all gone for either CoC or a number of more modern RPGs (Mothership, Spire, Blades in the Dark, etc.).

 

[Oofta]

All I have to say is that if the 5E DMG is "rubbish", it doesn't hold a candle to wonderful Gygaxian advice like "If your players are overly cautious about going through a dungeon, make fun of them and call them cowards." Because nothing says good DM advice like belittling players while also having the dungeon filled with insta-kill traps.

The only real way to learn to DM is by doing it.

 

[the Jester]

It's too late.

Those initial 5e DMs were burned by the lack of help and want restrictions now.

That's one reason why Command was claimed down.

Are you seriously suggesting that no DM who started with 5e is a good DM? Or counts as experienced after DMing for an entire decade?

I am very dubious about your claim that 5e is awful to DM in the first place, and I think you're going to a pretty extreme place here.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Did they, though? This sounds like an anecdote, but if you have evidence to back it up, I'm open to seeing it. As far as my experience goes, every old DM who's running a game is running 5e (except maybe one I know in another town).

I mean, were you reading threads here or on RPG.net or...really much of anywhere for the first three or four years of 5e's existence?

Every single thread that had someone asking for advice about a rule was swamped with 10+ replies saying something to the effect of, "We can't answer your question, it's purely up to your DM" or "you're the DM, you figure it out." Often, the former would be followed by the latter once the original poster clarified, "I am the DM and I'm seeking advice."

It was genuinely infuriating to see the pervasive distaste for actually giving advice or support to brand-new DMs.

 

[el-remmen]

This is how I’d rule these.

Daydream: You can do a lot of things while concentrating including casting spells, talking to people, doing things like make a knowledge check. You can go hours while maintaining concentration. You are not totally focused on only concentrating. Besides they only daydream for a few seconds, not enough to get lost in thought.. Wouldn't stop concentration if I were running the game..

I’d let it break concentration or at least call for an Int-based Concentration check.

Surrender: only lasts for a moment and then they change their mind. Only denies action for a round.

Yeah but surrender also involves dropping your weapons and putting your hands up. You may even drop to your knees.

Swim:- Getting a confused look they try to swim where they are. After all you did not tell them to move over to the moat, dive in and then swim. It's too much for a single word. Also too powerful if, for example, someone was on a boat at sea.

If there is water in view they can reach on their turn they try to swim.

Lie: "The sky is purple"

Yeah. Not much to this one

Breathe: The dragon breaths fire.

There are a lot of possible outcomes for some great some terrible. Most ineffectual.

Regurgitate: I wouldn't know how to do this on command.

Finger down the throat!

As for the “jump” command while the target is on the edge of a ship deck, I’d also rule the target would simply jump in place but if it is a wet slippery deck I might require an acrobatics or athletics check to not fall prone or maybe even over the side if there was no life rail or the ship was pitching on the high seas.

To me this kind of stuff is the fun of the game!

 

[the Jester]

The designers have more or less went on an apology tour about "yeah we screwed up the DMG So new DMs were left confused or unsupported". And it will rev back up with the new DMG.

I have never heard of this apology tour, or a bunch of these "we screwed up the DMG" comments, but maybe I missed them. I don't always watch designer commentary. Do you have links?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Are you seriously suggesting that no DM who started with 5e is a good DM? Or counts as experienced after DMing for an entire decade?

I am very dubious about your claim that 5e is awful to DM in the first place, and I think you're going to a pretty extreme place here.

Uh...no? That has nothing to do with the claim made.

The claim made was that a significant number of brand-new DMs with 5e were burned by that process, and thus chose to exit the hobby rather than sticking around. That doesn't say one thing about whether zero "DM(s) who started with 5e [are] good DM(s)"--just that a significant number of people who would, or at least could, have been good DMs now don't run D&D at all because they had a bad experience.

My experience looking at how people responded to questions for the first, as noted, 3-4 years of 5e's run strongly reflects this. As does my experience with my first...at least two, probably three 5e DMs. They were inspired to give it a shot. The opacity of the text, the difficulty of getting actually useful advice from other people, and the rules letting them down led to disappointment and frustration, and they haven't DM'd again since. (That number would be four, but the fourth actually did come back to DMing about six years later.)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

All I have to say is that if the 5E DMG is "rubbish", it doesn't hold a candle to wonderful Gygaxian advice like "If your players are overly cautious about going through a dungeon, make fun of them and call them cowards." Because nothing says good DM advice like belittling players while also having the dungeon filled with insta-kill traps.

His masterpiece for that kind of thing was:

Role-Playing Mastery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which was basically advice on how to be the biggest jerk adversarial DM humanly possible. It was so awful even Gygax himself later disowned it (in the early '00s I think), saying he'd never suggest that approach!

The only real way to learn to DM is by doing it.

I think having it modelled for you is hugely valuable too, and that's what a lot of the YouTube stuff etc. really helped with. For older generations you had to actually have someone DM for you to see it modelled.

 

[the Jester]

I mean, were you reading threads here or on RPG.net or...really much of anywhere for the first three or four years of 5e's existence?

Every single thread that had someone asking for advice about a rule was swamped with 10+ replies saying something to the effect of, "We can't answer your question, it's purely up to your DM" or "you're the DM, you figure it out." Often, the former would be followed by the latter once the original poster clarified, "I am the DM and I'm seeking advice."

It was genuinely infuriating to see the pervasive distaste for actually giving advice or support to brand-new DMs.

I have been pretty active here since Eric Noah quit running his site. While there were certainly people pointing at "rulings not rules" in some threads, I think you are massively exaggerating, at least from the way I remember it. "Every single thread"? I really don't think that was the case.

I don't recall an overwhelming "This is hard to DM!" sentiment. I recall an overwhelming "This is great D&D!" sentiment.

Clearly YMMV.

 

[Oofta]

This is how I’d rule these.



I’d let it break concentration or at least call for an Int-based Concentration check.


Yeah but surrender also involves dropping your weapons and putting your hands up. You may even drop to your knees.



If there is water in view they can reach on their turn they try to swim.




Yeah. Not much to this one


There are a lot of possible outcomes for some great some terrible. Most ineffectual.


Finger down the throat!

As for the “jump” command while the target is on the edge of a ship deck, I’d also rule the target would simply jump in place but if it is a wet slippery deck I might require an acrobatics or athletics check to not fall prone or maybe even over the side if there was no life rail or the ship was pitching on the high seas.

To me this kind of stuff is the fun of the game!

I gave how I would rule. Which is my point, either command is overpowered for a first level spell or already restricted to a few basic options depending on the DM.

If, as a DM, you prefer shenanigans you can just house rule and allow it.