D&D General Deborah Ann Woll Teaches Jon Bernthal D&D

[Distracted DM]

Shhh... don't tell anyone, but any game made with D&D rules is pretty much a D&D variant/clone, and all D&D is D&D, even if a 3rd party wrote it or if a particular individual isn't fond of its presentation.

I'm not entirely clear on the conclusion you're drawing here and I don't want to misunderstand- it seems like you're saying that any game inspired by D&D is D&D, even if it's made by other people. Does genre or ruleset make something different enough that it isn't D&D?

Knave! and Into the Odd could trace their lineage back to D&D and share the fantasy genre- are they both D&D?

Star Wars Saga Edition was made with d20 rules which were originally D&D rules, so when you're playing Star Wars you're actually playing D&D?
d20 Modern- that was made with D&D rules, even closer than SW:SE. You're playing D&D, not d20 Modern?

The last two examples are very close in system, but pretty different in genre- I'm curious how far of a connection you'd make between any other TTRPG and D&D, considering that D&D was a foundational ruleset for TTRPGs which many other games have since sprung off of, or been inspired by, even if they lack genre or rules in common.

I guess the question is where do you draw the line, since you say that any game made with D&D rules = D&D variant = D&D?

 

[Thommy H-H]

When he asked her specifically about D&D and why she liked it, clearly Woll should have held up a hand and explained, slowly and carefully, the full history of roleplaying games as a cultural phenomenon, starting with the debate over whether Gygax or Arneson actually formulated the original rules, then moving onto the formation of TSR and so on. At that point, she could have also explained the proliferation of similar games with different rules, then other genres. I think she could probably cover most of the history of GURPs during the runtime of the podcast, but she'd have to come back for another episode to discuss the early-2000s and the rise of the Forge as a force in indie game design, before switching back to D&D under WOTC, the merits of 3.0 vs. 3.5, then onto 4E and Pathfinder, before circling back around to the 10-year history of 5E. At that point, Bernthal should be ready to undertake an example encounter, now furnished with all the required knowledge to appreciate that "D&D" is only a tiny part of the wider TTRPG hobby and that what he's being shown is not considered by everyone - or even most people - to be "the greatest game in the world".

Or, you know, just have a regular conversation that human beings have when one of them is curious about a thing another of them is interested in and which they clearly know nothing about.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm not entirely clear on the conclusion you're drawing here and I don't want to misunderstand- it seems like you're saying that any game inspired by D&D is D&D, even if it's made by other people. Does genre or ruleset make something different enough that it isn't D&D?

Knave! and Into the Odd could trace their lineage back to D&D and share the fantasy genre- are they both D&D?

Star Wars Saga Edition was made with d20 rules which were originally D&D rules, so when you're playing Star Wars you're actually playing D&D?
d20 Modern- that was made with D&D rules, even closer than SW:SE. You're playing D&D, not d20 Modern?

The last two examples are very close in system, but pretty different in genre- I'm curious how far of a connection you'd make between any other TTRPG and D&D, considering that D&D was a foundational ruleset for TTRPGs which many other games have since sprung off of, or been inspired by, even if they lack genre or rules in common.

I guess the question is where do you draw the line, since you say that any game made with D&D rules = D&D variant = D&D?

My opinion is that basically any roleplaying activity that people participate in and want to describe as D&D, is D&D. If people are exercising their imaginations together in some way, and describing that as “D&D” is meaningful to them, then there’s no real benefit in pointing out that, technically, they aren’t playing The Dungeons and Dragons Tabletop Roleplaying Game. Especially given how the term “D&D” very much functions as the brand name synonymous with the type of product for most normies, if people want to play Vampire the Masquerade or whatever for their “D&D night,” I say more power to them.

 

[Mistwell]

I think the negative reaction some folks have to her describing D&D as “the greatest game ever created” is understandable. The things she highlights about what makes D&D so great are not really unique to D&D, in fact they’re common to all roleplaying games.

An actress saying she's passionate about D&D and thinks it's the best game ever isn't something that should get a negative reaction. She's not in this industry. You have no reason to believe she's even aware of any other roleplaying games. She didn't say roleplaying games, she just said greatest game.

I again think you guys are deeply lost in the weeds. She's not saying it HERE, in a context of fans who talk about and playing many tabletop role playing games. She's an actress, talking about her experience, which very likely includes only D&D on terms of tabletop roleplaying games (which, by the way, is the total experience most people I play D&D with have - they've never played another RPG and have never even heard of most other RPGs). To her, it's the best game ever, among all games she has experienced in life, or the person she's talking to has experienced (who doesn't even know what a roleplaying game is!)

In this context, no, this reaction isn't understandable. It's downright bizarre.

To see D&D praised so highly for characteristics it shares with all of the countless games of its type could understandably be grating, especially if you’re not fond of the specific game mechanics of D&D, and I don’t think that’s at all unfair or weird of people to express.

By the same token, we would do well to keep the context in mind. She’s talking to someone who has heard of D&D, but who’s closest point of comparison is board games. The idea of a roleplaying game is alien to him, but he’s curious enough about it to be asking her to explain it. In this context, if you want to convert this person to an RPG fan, it makes perfect sense to talk up the roleplaying game he has heard of and is asking questions about, and to focus on the things about it that make all roleplaying games great. Diving right into specific systems and why actually, this other game that’s like D&D is way better, and he should try that instead. Much better to get them hooked on the gateway drug first before introducing the idea of other systems.

So you DO understand the context, and still think it's rational to complain she didn't mention other roleplaying games, particularly given we have no reason to think she's ever even heard of or experienced any other roleplaying game and she's definitely talking to someone who has no clue about what a roleplaying game is?

Naw, this was a really weird reaction to this video. I stand by that. If you were sitting in that room, it would have been weird for you to question if she is a shill, as evidenced by the fact she didn't mention some rando new roleplaying game.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

When he asked her specifically about D&D and why she liked it, clearly Woll should have held up a hand and explained, slowly and carefully, the full history of roleplaying games as a cultural phenomenon, starting with the debate over whether Gygax or Arneson actually formulated the original rules, then moving onto the formation of TSR and so on. At that point, she could have also explained the proliferation of similar games with different rules, then other genres. I think she could probably cover most of the history of GURPs during the runtime of the podcast, but she'd have to come back for another episode to discuss the early-2000s and the rise of the Forge as a force in indie game design, before switching back to D&D under WOTC, the merits of 3.0 vs. 3.5, then onto 4E and Pathfinder, before circling back around to the 10-year history of 5E.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm not entirely clear on the conclusion you're drawing here and I don't want to misunderstand- it seems like you're saying that any game inspired by D&D is D&D, even if it's made by other people. Does genre or ruleset make something different enough that it isn't D&D?

In a conversation like the one we're talking about, where an actress who has only ever played D&D in terms of RPGs is talking to an actor who has never played D&D and doesn't even know what it is. That's the context. It's pretty important to keep that context in mind for this particular conversation.

 

[Distracted DM]

My opinion is that basically any roleplaying activity that people participate in and want to describe as D&D, is D&D. If people are exercising their imaginations together in some way, and describing that as “D&D” is meaningful to them, then there’s no real benefit in pointing out that, technically, they aren’t playing The Dungeons and Dragons Tabletop Roleplaying Game. Especially given how the term “D&D” very much functions as the band name synonymous with the type of product for most normies, if people want to play Vampire the Masquerade or whatever for their “D&D night,” I say more power to them.

I have no issue with using "D&D" in casual conversation with folk that don't know anything about it- I will occasionally, if the conversation is right, qualify it saying that D&D is the biggest of many, many TTRPGs.

But the person I was replying to seemed, from context, to be suggesting that every game that derived its origins from D&D is just D&D by a different name- speaking with people that do know the differences, not with random folk that don't know D&D from Blades in the Dark etc.

 

[Distracted DM]

In a conversation like the one we're talking about, where an actress who has only ever played D&D in terms of RPGs is talking to an actor who has never played D&D and doesn't even know what it is. That's the context. It's pretty important to keep that context in mind for this particular conversation.

Context is definitely important, that's why I asked them if I understood correctly. I understood it differently from the context of their replying to another poster.

 

[Charlaquin]

So you DO understand the context, and still think it's rational to complain she didn't mention other roleplaying games, particularly given we have no reason to think she's ever even heard of or experienced any other roleplaying game and she's definitely talking to someone who has no clue about what a roleplaying game is?

No, no. I just understand that most people’s reactions to things have little to do with rationality. To be rubbed wrong by her describing D&D as “the greatest game ever created” doesn’t have to be rational to be understandable; certainly it doesn’t rise to the degree of “super weird” that you’re attributing to it.

It makes perfect sense for her to have said in the context of the podcast, and I think she was right to do so. It also makes perfect sense that some people would find that statement off-putting despite that context, and it’s perfectly reasonable for people who did to express that feeling in this context - a forum dedicated to discussing RPGs.

 

[Mistwell]

I swear this thread is reminding me of this great reenactment of a trial deposition: