D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[Remathilis]

I am not beholden to the name or concept of orcs, orc is mostly a common CR 1/2 stat block. If orcs cannot be alien enough any more, then replace them with something that can. The goal is to reintroduce something alien and 'scary' into the game, orc or otherwise, instead of everything just being friendly humanoid races in the valley of sunshine and rainbows.

You're never going to get a Monster Manual that does that. You're only hope is to create every monster from scratch or pull from nonstandard sources. The classic monsters of D&D are well explored and overexposed due to 50 years of Monster Manuals, modules, Dragon mag articles, and tie-in media. You aren't going to get the mystery back.

I actually think Paizo did something that could work: they conceded some monsters to becoming ancestries (orcs and goblins) but used their Revised Bestiary to remove and change as many D&D stalwarts as possible. You can't rely on ancestral knowledge of D&D in Pathfinder anymore. There could be a very interesting product for someone to make an alternative MM that takes the classics in wild new directions. But WotC won't be that someone. They have to play the hits or people will riot.

 

[Scott Christian]

You're never going to get a Monster Manual that does that. You're only hope is to create every monster from scratch or pull from nonstandard sources. The classic monsters of D&D are well explored and overexposed due to 50 years of Monster Manuals, modules, Dragon mag articles, and tie-in media. You aren't going to get the mystery back.

I actually think Paizo did something that could work: they conceded some monsters to becoming ancestries (orcs and goblins) but used their Revised Bestiary to remove and change as many D&D stalwarts as possible. You can't rely on ancestral knowledge of D&D in Pathfinder anymore. There could be a very interesting product for someone to make an alternative MM that takes the classics in wild new directions. But WotC won't be that someone. They have to play the hits or people will riot.

Yeah, even though I haven't played a lot of PF2, I like what they did to their monsters.

That said, I still think the best way to handle it is to create your own unique sources for the problematic ancestry monsters of you choose to use them like undead, demons, etc.

 

[mamba]

You're never going to get a Monster Manual that does that.

I am not expecting to, I am also not getting a PHB that throws out most of the races again. I am simply saying I would prefer a setting in which the world is more mysterious, strange and alien, and potentially dangerous, than it currently is in D&D. I am under no illusion that WotC will accomplish that

I actually think Paizo did something that could work: they conceded some monsters to becoming ancestries (orcs and goblins) but used their Revised Bestiary to remove and change as many D&D stalwarts as possible. You can't rely on ancestral knowledge of D&D in Pathfinder anymore.

interesting, haven’t taken a look at what they did in their revision

 

[mamba]

That said, I still think the best way to handle it is to create your own unique sources for the problematic ancestry monsters of you choose to use them like undead, demons, etc.

I agree, waiting for WotC to do that is futile. I simply stated a preference, I am not expecting WotC to meet it, just like with my other preferences

 

[DEFCON 1]

You're never going to get a Monster Manual that does that. You're only hope is to create every monster from scratch or pull from nonstandard sources. The classic monsters of D&D are well explored and overexposed due to 50 years of Monster Manuals, modules, Dragon mag articles, and tie-in media. You aren't going to get the mystery back.

I actually think Paizo did something that could work: they conceded some monsters to becoming ancestries (orcs and goblins) but used their Revised Bestiary to remove and change as many D&D stalwarts as possible. You can't rely on ancestral knowledge of D&D in Pathfinder anymore. There could be a very interesting product for someone to make an alternative MM that takes the classics in wild new directions. But WotC won't be that someone. They have to play the hits or people will riot.

I have definitely found that in the PF game I'm playing in. There have been countless times we've faced off against creatures for whom I have never seen or experienced before (while as a strictly D&D DM). It's been very interesting to see these new creatures.

The only real issue though in all of this is that the GM of the game is just like us... so even new monsters still have that feeling of familiarity because he describes them in the same way he (and we) describe bog standard monsters. It feels like the same problem as the "humans in funny hats" issue for species. People WANT their non-human ancestries to feel and be "alien"... but they get played by the same bog standard players who couldn't act like an alien if their life depended on it, LOL. So you have humans playing elves-as-humans because that's the best they are capable of.

 

[Oofta]

I have definitely found that in the PF game I'm playing in. There have been countless times we've faced off against creatures for whom I have never seen or experienced before (while as a strictly D&D DM). It's been very interesting to see these new creatures.

The only real issue though in all of this is that the GM of the game is just like us... so even new monsters still have that feeling of familiarity because he describes them in the same way he (and we) describe bog standard monsters. It feels like the same problem as the "humans in funny hats" issue for species. People WANT their non-human ancestries to feel and be "alien"... but they get played by the same bog standard players who couldn't act like an alien if their life depended on it, LOL. So you have humans playing elves-as-humans because that's the best they are capable of.

It's kind of funny the reactions I've gotten when I try to play a different species as being truly different. For example my dragonborn has a bit of a problem telling most humans and elves apart. They're all roughly the same shape and size, no horns or frills, no scale patterns, almost no variation in color to speak of. Some may have darker or lighter skin, but what about red, pure white, blue or green? Sure they have different hair styles but people get haircuts so you can't rely on that.

But that's just one tiny example of how I think the different species could react to the world around them, and not anything most people put much of any thought into.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I am not expecting to, I am also not getting a PHB that throws out most of the races again. I am simply saying I would prefer a setting in which the world is more mysterious, strange and alien, and potentially dangerous, than it currently is in D&D. I am under no illusion that WotC will accomplish that


interesting, haven’t taken a look at what they did in their revision

Nor have I (mostly because I hate PF2e's mechanics and design philosophy).

 

[mamba]

Nor have I (mostly because I hate PF2e's mechanics and design philosophy).

Never really looked at it much, from a quick glance it is much more crunchy than I want. I am more looking for the halfway point between 5e and Shadowdark. Don’t like the superheroics of 5e, but the SD classes are too simplistic imo

 

[Hriston]

Ah, yeah, sorry for the lack of clarity in my ramble: they had teased last year that they had two story things in the pipeline for after the Core, one of which would involve the Red Wizards and the other would involve. So now we are getting a Forgotten Realms Adventure Guise for DMs which will probsvly be what theybwere alluding to with the Red Wizards...and then this Starter Set which is in theFall storyline release slot. That seems to me where theyvwere thinking about Venger, who is also on the DMG cover and Perkins has been talking him up as a BBEG at GenCon.

Ah, okay. Thanks for bringing me up to speed.

For Quests from the Infinite Staircase, the same designer leading this project basically rewrote Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, rearranging everything smd adding an entire new BBEG to drive the action of the module. I expect we could see the same here, and who better to be manipulating a Cult of Chaos than a literal Saturday Morning Cartoon villain in a ridiculous costume...?

I could see that working, and Venger certainly wears the correct color scheme to fit in with the cultists, but I'm not sure what it would add to have a wizard like Venger working behind the scenes when the adventure already has the evil priest heading up the cult and supposedly organizing the humanoid presence in the caves in some way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Never really looked at it much, from a quick glance it is much more crunchy than I want. I am more looking for the halfway point between 5e and Shadowdark. Don’t like the superheroics of 5e, but the SD classes are too simplistic imo

It's not the crunch, It's the 4e-style philosophy of mechanics over fiction that I can't get behind.