TSR How Did I Survive AD&D? Fudging and Railroads, Apparently
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overgeeked
Open-World Sandbox
Engaging, satisfying story and fair gameplay where players have agency are opposing forces. You have to pick one or the other. This kind of thing started with the Hickman Revolution and the Dragonlance modules.
You have two incompatible options. 1) Play the game as a game and let the chips fall where they may, or; 2) play the "game" as a storytelling engine and curate the experience to facilitate something approaching the shape of a story.
It depends entirely on what your group wants from the game. If you want epic stories, you have to ditch elements of gameplay to make that happen. You have to curate the experience and curtail player agency to some degree, usually quite a bit to force the game to unfold in something resembling a story.
This is exactly how some people played, yes. Not most and certainly not all. Proper is a moral judgement not a factual one.
OSR products are meatgrinders because characters are weaker and die easier. Combat is assumed to be deadly and best avoided. Etc.
Depends on what you consider cheating, really. Fudging rolls? Quantum ogres? Illusion of choice?
You have two incompatible options. 1) Play the game as a game and let the chips fall where they may, or; 2) play the "game" as a storytelling engine and curate the experience to facilitate something approaching the shape of a story.
Zardnaar
Legend
It's not how I play.
I'm basically beer and pretzels and late 1E/early 2E in style with late 2E xp rewards.
If it's a key encounter I will do it in 5E as well. PCs can avoid it if they're taking precautions (this avoids useful NPCs as well.
Generally I don't rail road outside of the rare time limit and general sandbox. By that I mean I may run X1 Isle of Dread.
Generally don't do gotcha type games. Bad things can happen but I don't do things like surprise ambush with energy draining undead.
If you loot a Tomb though and a wight is in it and you get touched.....
If theres a story it's more like a modern open world game. You have agency to change it or resolving it only the general plotline is mapped out.
I'm basically beer and pretzels and late 1E/early 2E in style with late 2E xp rewards.
If it's a key encounter I will do it in 5E as well. PCs can avoid it if they're taking precautions (this avoids useful NPCs as well.
Generally I don't rail road outside of the rare time limit and general sandbox. By that I mean I may run X1 Isle of Dread.
Generally don't do gotcha type games. Bad things can happen but I don't do things like surprise ambush with energy draining undead.
If you loot a Tomb though and a wight is in it and you get touched.....
If theres a story it's more like a modern open world game. You have agency to change it or resolving it only the general plotline is mapped out.
Zardnaar
Legend
Darksuns like that as well.
The good 2E adventures are in Dungeon magazine, late in the cycle or rare.
Yeah. I'm sure there are better ones. But I'm running this specific one because it was the "one" that we never finished back in the day. It's a way to complete the stories of these characters that have been sitting in limbo since the mid-1990s.
Argyle King
Legend
For whatever it is worth, I've recently been playing Dungeon Crawl Classics, and it (allegedly) has a li an old school vibe.
I haven't generally found that fudging and railroading to be an assumed part of DCC adventure design.
"Unfair" encounters? Sometimes, but most of the modules are written in a way to give the player some advanced indication that discretion might be the better part of valor in those cases. In other cases, there are usually actions the players can take to change an encounter's difficulty.
That's a different game than D&D, so maybe it's a comparison that doesn't add much to the conversation. On the other hand, I think it may be relevant because it is a game that takes inspiration from older editions of D&D.
I haven't generally found that fudging and railroading to be an assumed part of DCC adventure design.
"Unfair" encounters? Sometimes, but most of the modules are written in a way to give the player some advanced indication that discretion might be the better part of valor in those cases. In other cases, there are usually actions the players can take to change an encounter's difficulty.
That's a different game than D&D, so maybe it's a comparison that doesn't add much to the conversation. On the other hand, I think it may be relevant because it is a game that takes inspiration from older editions of D&D.
GreyLord
Legend
Slightly tongue in cheek. Do your best to KILL THEM ALL!!!
Your villain knows their abilities...he can exploit that to KILL THEM ALL!!!
Make it the old school grinder. It's the module they will NEVER FINISH!!!
Every attempt will have a TPK!
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
But you had fun, right?
That would be the most important part for me. If everyone at my table is having a good time, I'm not going to worry about what people on the internet say about my dice rolling or storytelling methods. (shrug)
That would be the most important part for me. If everyone at my table is having a good time, I'm not going to worry about what people on the internet say about my dice rolling or storytelling methods. (shrug)
Zardnaar
Legend
Most OSR modules are fine it's just gotcha DMs and things like Tomb of Horrors exist.
I mostly run my own, dungeon magazine, and faily lenient at level 1.
I'm probably more generous with xp handed out now. BitD 2E books I owned were stingy. Late 2E and B/X and 1E are more generous xp wise and I've kinda combined them.
I'm actually running C&C it's closer to 1E though with elements of B/X in it. I've been using 1E and B/X adventures.
I don't mind old school energy drains but I'm not a fan of them connecting. I'm sparse with their use and generous with foreshadowing.
They're good for tension levels though as PCs know they exist in game. 5E kick in door, OSR listen at the door.
I mostly run my own, dungeon magazine, and faily lenient at level 1.
I'm probably more generous with xp handed out now. BitD 2E books I owned were stingy. Late 2E and B/X and 1E are more generous xp wise and I've kinda combined them.
I'm actually running C&C it's closer to 1E though with elements of B/X in it. I've been using 1E and B/X adventures.
I don't mind old school energy drains but I'm not a fan of them connecting. I'm sparse with their use and generous with foreshadowing.
They're good for tension levels though as PCs know they exist in game. 5E kick in door, OSR listen at the door.
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pukunui
Legend
I started with 2e in the 90s as well but I honestly can't remember much about it. I think we made up our own adventures. I didn't start using premade adventures until after I moved to New Zealand and started running a 3.5e game for my in-laws.
Can I just point you in the direction of Waterdeep: Dragon Heist as a more recent example of this kind of railroady adventure? I mean, the thing even has a sidebar telling the DM to have the MacGuffin mind control the PCs into giving it up if they manage to get their hands on it early. It's apparently of utmost importance that the PCs participate in the full Benny Hill chase sequence first. It's also got some prime examples of stripping players of their agency. (Don't get me wrong - it's a great toolbox for low-level urban campaigns, but the actual adventure is trash.)
Can I just point you in the direction of Waterdeep: Dragon Heist as a more recent example of this kind of railroady adventure? I mean, the thing even has a sidebar telling the DM to have the MacGuffin mind control the PCs into giving it up if they manage to get their hands on it early. It's apparently of utmost importance that the PCs participate in the full Benny Hill chase sequence first. It's also got some prime examples of stripping players of their agency. (Don't get me wrong - it's a great toolbox for low-level urban campaigns, but the actual adventure is trash.)
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