TSR How Did I Survive AD&D? Fudging and Railroads, Apparently

[Paul Farquhar]

The players can't have their PCs give up and go home if the GM won't present relevant opportunities and resolve such action declarations.

PCs can do whatever it was reasonable that their characters could do. They don't have to wait for the GM to present them with a list of options like some computer game. And in Masks, choosing to do nothing and not follow up the next clue is a perfectly reasonable option. Unlike many of those 2nd edition Ravenloft adventures, with their doomclocks forcing the PCs to keep going down the rails. Whist Masks technically does have a doomclock, the PCs are not aware of it until near the end, so they are not forced to do anything.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I haven't run Witchlight, but my experience running Frostmaiden was that it was very "sandboxy." The individual chapters had little to do with one another or an overall plot. The last half of the adventure seemed "tagged on" with no hints in the rest of the adventure - nothing to do with a Rime or Frostmaiden.
Each chapter is essentially its own mystery/situation. Which can be good or bad.

Apart from the quantum dragon, that always launched it's attack [via boxed text narrated cutscene] just before the PCs could stop it, no mater how quickly or slowly they reached that point in the adventure.

I experienced Witchlight as a player, and didn't feel it was particularly sandboxy, but that might have been down to the way it was run.

 

[S'mon]

To what extent do you set this up, by dropping potentially epic stuff into the sandbox for the players to find?

Not exactly. What I do usually is get a bunch of published adventures, use them to flesh out the sandbox, the players hear rumours and decide what to do. Those adventures often have active villains with plans in motion. Depending on how things develop, an epic plot may develop, but it's not one I pre-plan.

Here's the rumour list for my new Shadowdark Wilderlands game:

Rumours in Imp Brucke M10 4454.

1. Farmer Brymassen would like someone to deal with the nasty Kobolds living in tunnels under his farm. They even kidnapped his lovely daughter Daisy to sell her to Orcs! Luckily she was rescued by some brave adventurers.

2. A cursed manor house inhabited by evil undead lies by the Hagmarsh beyond the Northwatch Hills, on the southern edge of the Vale. Some say they have a guiding intelligence.

3. The 'Tomb of the Hunters' is in the hills north of Imp Brucke.

4. Bristleback Goblins have been raiding the trail north from Imp Brucke into the Vale.

5. On moonlit nights a strange white marble archway can be seen on the north edge of the marsh outside the village, leading into Javelin Hill.

6. Avoid the Lost Citadel of the Crimson Minotaur! Few who enter there return.

7. In the western hills towards the Castellans is Lah's Refuge, where an order of former warrior priests dwell in isolation, having laid down the arms they once wielded in service to the Princes of Neo-Nerath. They provide succour to weary travellers, asking little in return.

8. Merilla the Mage is a goodly sort. A former adventuress, now she dwells quietly in her tower west of Imp Brucke, engaging in magical researches. She has an animosity with her rival, Cyrus of Capricia, ever since Cyrus' clumsy halfling apprentice stepped on her dress at the Lord's Ball and ripped it quite off!

9. Caer Ferros is an old Nerathi border fortress in the Northwatch Hills, said to be cursed and long abandoned.

10. A band of river pirates have been attacking both boats and farmsteads along the wide River of Visions/River Northwatch. Their hidden lair is likely downstream of Capricia.

11. Raiders from the Crimson Serpent Jungle have been disrupting trade with the South, attacking both traders and Altani villages along the Scalos River. The High Lord of Capricia would be glad to see them dealt with. The raiders are numerous and dangerous, though - and not human.

12. The Cult of the Green Skull dwell in a dungeon not far south of Imp Brucke. They recently painted green skulls all over the village, and are known to kidnap travellers on the road, including a couple adventurers, who were recently rescued from their dungeon. Luckily, the Pact stops them harming the village itself.

13. Somewhere in the hills west of Imp Brucke lie the Halls of Enlandin, the ruined fortress of a wizard, cast down by the warriors of Nerath more than five centuries ago. It's said that the tunnels beneath the fortress are almost endless. Scavengers have long since looted the upper works, but treasure - and danger - may still be found below.

And here's a campaign map with adventure sites noted:

I started the sandbox in August with just two or three adventures placed; after two months it's a lot more developed.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Those adventures often have active villains with plans in motion.

That's what I mean really. If a sandbox game isn't very interesting, it might be because the DM didn't put any interesting toys in there in the first place!

 

[Zardnaar]

That's what I mean really. If a sandbox game isn't very interesting, it might be because the DM didn't put any interesting toys in there in the first place!

There's a skill to it.

 

[S'mon]

That's what I mean really. If a sandbox game isn't very interesting, it might be because the DM didn't put any interesting toys in there in the first place!

Yes - sandboxes take GM work! Relying purely on random generation sucks. But most of the work can be done during play, as you develop the setting, which I find pretty easy and fun if the starting conditions are good (I have abandoned sandboxes that weren't working well).

My epic 5e Ghinarian Hills campaign started off with the Black Sun Necromancers (from my previous 4e campaign) far offscreen, on the other side of the Castellan Mountains, but with plans to conquer the campaign area. So things slowly ramped up over time, leading to eventual epic high fantasy quest to close the Black Sun Gate, a duel with their demigod champion Kainos Warbringer (from 4e DCC 'The Warbringer's Son') before the walls of Hara, and the final assault on the lair of the Necromancer King of Neo-Nerath, Borritt Crowfinger (originally a throwaway villain from a 4e Dungeon Delve), riding a bronze dragon over the walls of Bisgen while legions of skeletal archers fired from the city walls.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I think that it hit me, after looking behind the curtain, that my core memories were all artificial. Every epic moment was scripted by some dude at TSR.
It might be a "no duh" moment for many of you, but it's really shattered my rose-colored glasses of nostalgia.
I've been asking myself for over 20 years, "why can't I run a good, memorable campaign?" Apparently, it's because I'm following standards of player agency, "playing to find out," etc.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes - sandboxes take GM work! Relying purely on random generation sucks. But most of the work can be done during play, as you develop the setting, which I find pretty easy and fun if the starting conditions are good (I have abandoned sandboxes that weren't working well).

My epic 5e Ghinarian Hills campaign started off with the Black Sun Necromancers (from my previous 4e campaign) far offscreen, on the other side of the Castellan Mountains, but with plans to conquer the campaign area. So things slowly ramped up over time, leading to eventual epic high fantasy quest to close the Black Sun Gate, a duel with their demigod champion Kainos Warbringer (from 4e DCC 'The Warbringer's Son') before the walls of Hara, and the final assault on the lair of the Necromancer King of Neo-Nerath, Borritt Crowfinger (originally a throwaway villain from a 4e Dungeon Delve), riding a bronze dragon over the walls of Bisgen while legions of skeletal archers fired from the city walls.

You can avoid random encounters.

I've blended elements of X1 with Kimgmaker for a hexcrawl.

Last used level 1 and 2 for my Thursday game. Sprinkle in the social encounters whenever appropriate to advance the plot.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It's quite funny. Players don't like paying tax on their loot even if they have permission to loot sites for a cut to local ruler.

I wouldn't mind it, so long as the tax is laid out in advance and properly authorized. A sudden, spontaneous "tax" levied only because the PCs have very suddenly become wealthy, and which is only levied on the PCs....that would be another story. But you resist illegitimate authority by proving yourself more legitimate, not by behaving in illegitimate ways yourself.

I think that it hit me, after looking behind the curtain, that my core memories were all artificial. Every epic moment was scripted by some dude at TSR.
It might be a "no duh" moment for many of you, but it's really shattered my rose-colored glasses of nostalgia.
I've been asking myself for over 20 years, "why can't I run a good, memorable campaign?" Apparently, it's because I'm following standards of player agency, "playing to find out," etc.

I think it would be more accurate to say that you have been trying to run a game of that type, while using the tools designed for the other type, and thus feeling frustrated by the failure of the tools to achieve the desired end. I can say that my campaign has been pretty fulfilling for my players, and I have played in a pretty fulfilling campaign with a completely different set of people that was also fulfilling. But it does take some real effort along lines that are often ignored or not seen for how important they are, compared to the more linear approach. (As stated, linearity is not bad, it is the false pretense of nonlinearity in a timely linear experience that is the problem.)

Cool. And that happened what...one time in your entire gaming career? How many years of play before and after that one moment? How many campaigns? And how many PCs died before you got to that moment? How many dead-end plot lines? How many anticlimaxes? Etc.

In order:
1. Three campaigns as a player, one as DM.
2. I mean, technically like 5 or 6 before? But been fairly consistent since the first time. I'm in a play drought for it, I admit, but I'm not having an issue running it.
3. Er... technically none?
4. Technically two dead ends, but both happened because real life got in the way, not because the game failed.
5. Oh, a handful. Anticlimax is not nearly the horror that so many make it out to be. Sometimes, it is good for a seeming massive threat to end up being a cakewalk. Those are things great memories are made of, so long as it isn't too frequent.

I agree that player agency is king and emergent story is the best way to go. But if you want to ensure the story is satisfying, you have to hack away at player agency to achieve it.

Not really. You just need to play with your cards face up as GM, explain to your players what you want out of the game and ask them to tell you want they want out of it, and set boundaries for what makes sense and what is warranted at your table.

My players do not fear random, permanent, irrevocable death, because I've told them that isn't a thing at my table. That doesn't mean they don't fear. Far from it! They've been extremely cautious nearly their whole campaign, with a few shining moments of throwing caution to the wind. But they are willing to act boldly when they care about things, because they know that I don't punish caring, I reward it—not necessarily with perfect success, but with new and interesting developments.

A willing, noble sacrifice to end a character's career? You're speaking my language. A desperate trip through the bowels of Hell to save a friend's soul, while they fight from the inside? O sweet Muse, sing to me! A ticking timer to resurrection, where you bring back knowledge from behind the veil of death, but cannot aid your allies in their darkest hour, and cannot know what costs they might pay for your absence? Sign me the hell up right this second.

That's how you address the problem of unresolved arcs. Don't let them remain unresolved! But also don't just hand them victory on a silver platter, because a pointless ending and an unearned ending are about equally disappointing. Instead, make every failure push things closer to a Dark Ending, and every success push things closer to a Golden Ending, no matter how small a push it might be. And every little, focused ending, a scene, a session, an adventure, forms another brick on the road to the ultimate conclusion. But the bricks will matter, because they'll be there due to the players' choices. They'll be there because the players decided what mattered to them, and gave it their all to seek it. The PCs will almost surely suffer and weep and bleed and swear rash oaths and do unwise deeds along the way. But they will also triumph and laugh and forge lasting bonds and save the day.

And together, you'll tell a story worth remembering.

 

[S'mon]

Not exactly. What I do usually is get a bunch of published adventures, use them to flesh out the sandbox, the players hear rumours and decide what to do. Those adventures often have active villains with plans in motion. Depending on how things develop, an epic plot may develop, but it's not one I pre-plan.

Here's the rumour list for my new Shadowdark Wilderlands game:

Rumours in Imp Brucke M10 4454.

1. Farmer Brymassen would like someone to deal with the nasty Kobolds living in tunnels under his farm. They even kidnapped his lovely daughter Daisy to sell her to Orcs! Luckily she was rescued by some brave adventurers.

2. A cursed manor house inhabited by evil undead lies by the Hagmarsh beyond the Northwatch Hills, on the southern edge of the Vale. Some say they have a guiding intelligence.

3. The 'Tomb of the Hunters' is in the hills north of Imp Brucke.

4. Bristleback Goblins have been raiding the trail north from Imp Brucke into the Vale.

5. On moonlit nights a strange white marble archway can be seen on the north edge of the marsh outside the village, leading into Javelin Hill.

6. Avoid the Lost Citadel of the Crimson Minotaur! Few who enter there return.

7. In the western hills towards the Castellans is Lah's Refuge, where an order of former warrior priests dwell in isolation, having laid down the arms they once wielded in service to the Princes of Neo-Nerath. They provide succour to weary travellers, asking little in return.

8. Merilla the Mage is a goodly sort. A former adventuress, now she dwells quietly in her tower west of Imp Brucke, engaging in magical researches. She has an animosity with her rival, Cyrus of Capricia, ever since Cyrus' clumsy halfling apprentice stepped on her dress at the Lord's Ball and ripped it quite off!

9. Caer Ferros is an old Nerathi border fortress in the Northwatch Hills, said to be cursed and long abandoned.

10. A band of river pirates have been attacking both boats and farmsteads along the wide River of Visions/River Northwatch. Their hidden lair is likely downstream of Capricia.

11. Raiders from the Crimson Serpent Jungle have been disrupting trade with the South, attacking both traders and Altani villages along the Scalos River. The High Lord of Capricia would be glad to see them dealt with. The raiders are numerous and dangerous, though - and not human.

12. The Cult of the Green Skull dwell in a dungeon not far south of Imp Brucke. They recently painted green skulls all over the village, and are known to kidnap travellers on the road, including a couple adventurers, who were recently rescued from their dungeon. Luckily, the Pact stops them harming the village itself.

13. Somewhere in the hills west of Imp Brucke lie the Halls of Enlandin, the ruined fortress of a wizard, cast down by the warriors of Nerath more than five centuries ago. It's said that the tunnels beneath the fortress are almost endless. Scavengers have long since looted the upper works, but treasure - and danger - may still be found below.

And here's a campaign map with adventure sites noted:

View attachment 381235

I started the sandbox in August with just two or three adventures placed; after two months it's a lot more developed.

I think with this one there are potential long term threats from the undead of Tosasth to the west (Terror in Tosasth), from the wizard lord of the Forbidden City to the south (Dwellers of the Forbidden City), and possibly from the evil & Chaotic Amiondel Elves of Ludgates off screen to the south. There's also the tyrannical & Chaotic City State of Rallu, City of the Sea Kings, far to the south. By and large though the setting is currently in a positive, growth period, so I think the likeliest focus will be on the expanding power of Law and possibly settlement of the Wilderness at the expense of Chaotic forces. We play to find out!