D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[Mistwell]

But the scroll itself has no action associated to it. The item itself does not require a Magic action, the spell may or may not.

That...feels like a meaningless distinction you make when you're attempting to find a distinction, rather than read it as it's written. The scroll itself has an action to activate it. Just because you have to look up the action required by checking the spell description doesn't mean it's not an action to activate the scroll.

 

[James Gasik]

If Fast Hands doesn't work with Wands (or Staves, I guess), which are possibly the most common "use magic item as an action" enchanted object, this facet of Fast Hands sounds like it's going to be extremely limited. Even if it does, it's still limited as it's going to require a Thief to find a Wand that won't be claimed by a spellcaster in their party, so all very much DM fiat.

At least with scrolls, that's something a player could reasonably get their hands on.

 

[James Gasik]

That...feels like a meaningless distinction you make when you're attempting to find a distinction, rather than read it as it's written. The scroll itself has an action to activate it. Just because you have to look up the action required by checking the spell description doesn't mean it's not an action to activate the scroll.

Yeah uh, thinking about this logic too hard makes my head hurt.

"Scrolls are magic items."

"Scrolls let casters cast spells.

"Casting one action spells is a magic action."

"Thieves can activate items requiring a magic action with their bonus action."

"The action to activate a scroll to cast a spell isn't a magic action."

So what are we saying here? Does using an action to read the scroll grant you a free magic action to then cast the spell? If scrolls aren't activated with magic actions, are they usable in antimagic fields? Can they be counterspelled?

Why define a "magic action" if it's not the default action to use...magic?

For that matter, why then isn't there a "magic bonus action" and "magic reaction"?

 

[abirdcall]

Wand of the War Mage is a magic item that requires casting a spell to use it. Most of those spells are going to be Magic Actions.

 

[abirdcall]

Magic items in the DMG that require an action to activate excluding casting a spell:

A-D

Alchemy Jug, Amulet of the Planes, Apparatus of Kwalish, Armor of Invulnerability, Bag of Holding, Bag of Tricks, Bead of Force, Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals, Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals, Candle of Invocation, Cap of Water Breathing, Carpet of Flying, Censer of Controlling Air Elementals, Chime of Opening, Cloak of Invisibility, Cloak of the Manta Ray, Cube of Force, Daern's Instant Fortress, Dagger of Venom, Decanter of Endless Water, Deck of Illusions, Dimensional Shackles, Dragon Scale Mail, Driftglobe, Dust of Disappearance, Dust of Dryness, Dust of Sneezing and Choking

I imagine a few of the ones I left out b/c they said 'cast this spell' will be reworded to allow their use.

If you feel the Fast Hands ability to activate a magic item is not useful if it can't be used with scrolls I don't know what else to say.

 

[Oofta]

That...feels like a meaningless distinction you make when you're attempting to find a distinction, rather than read it as it's written. The scroll itself has an action to activate it. Just because you have to look up the action required by checking the spell description doesn't mean it's not an action to activate the scroll.

I think the wording and the logic is clear.

Fast Hands​

As a Bonus Action, you can do one of the following.​

...​

Use an Object. Take the Utilize action, or take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action.​

​

(underline added).

Spell Scroll (Cantrip, 30 GP Level 1, 50 GP)​

A Spell Scroll (Cantrip) or Spell Scroll (Level 1) is a magic item that bears the words of a cantrip or level 1 spell, respectively, determined by the scroll’s creator. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components.​

​

There is no Magic Action associated with the scroll itself. The spell has to be on your class's spell list, you are casting a spell using the scroll. Since the magic item (the scroll) does not require a magic action, Fast Hands does not apply. There may be some generic scrolls in the 2024 DMG like the Scroll of Protection from the 2014 version which requires an action to read, I would assume that will now be a magic action. But that's because the scroll itself is the magic and anyone can use it.

Feel free to rule differently.

 

[Oofta]

Wand of the War Mage is a magic item that requires casting a spell to use it. Most of those spells are going to be Magic Actions.

I would assume you would not let someone with the Fast Hands feature use a Wand of the War Mage to cast Fireball as a bonus action?

 

[MarkB]

I would assume you would not let someone with the Fast Hands feature use a Wand of the War Mage to cast Fireball as a bonus action?

The wand of the war mage doesn't require any action to activate - it's always active so long as you're holding it. You don't even need to be using it as a spell focus to gain its benefits.

 

[abirdcall]

I would assume you would not let someone with the Fast Hands feature use a Wand of the War Mage to cast Fireball as a bonus action?

Of course.

Otherwise all 1 action spells can be cast as bonus actions if there is a magic item involved in the process.

 

[James Gasik]

Magic items in the DMG that require an action to activate excluding casting a spell:

A-D

Alchemy Jug, Amulet of the Planes, Apparatus of Kwalish, Armor of Invulnerability, Bag of Holding, Bag of Tricks, Bead of Force, Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals, Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals, Candle of Invocation, Cap of Water Breathing, Carpet of Flying, Censer of Controlling Air Elementals, Chime of Opening, Cloak of Invisibility, Cloak of the Manta Ray, Cube of Force, Daern's Instant Fortress, Dagger of Venom, Decanter of Endless Water, Deck of Illusions, Dimensional Shackles, Dragon Scale Mail, Driftglobe, Dust of Disappearance, Dust of Dryness, Dust of Sneezing and Choking

I imagine a few of the ones I left out b/c they said 'cast this spell' will be reworded to allow their use.

If you feel the Fast Hands ability to activate a magic item is not useful if it can't be used with scrolls I don't know what else to say.

Again, it comes down to "here's an ability that requires you to have a specific magic item in your possession that you can't rely on having" vs. one that works with a magic item that should, in theory, be more readily available.